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Confederate flags spotted outside the US
Topic Started: Jul 11 2015, 12:20 PM (3,381 Views)
Copper
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Shortstop

I watched some of the Smokey and the Bandit marathon yesterday.

I'm surprised this was allowed on TV, it was on HDNet

In the movies the front plate shows the offensive flag

For most of the images I just Googled of this vehicle the flag is either hidden or clipped out of the picture. I wonder if this was on purpose.

Posted Image
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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kluurs
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Fulla-Carp
Did she hit the car in front of her because she was driving too quickly or because the rain made the road slick? Were the people killed because of the tornado - or because they failed to take appropriate cover?

Slavery was a huge economic asset in the South. State's rights and slavery were interwoven. There was a fair amount of distrust that congress might do something crazy like wrench millions of dollars of economic assets (slaves) from Southerners without compensation. One can see parallels today - how much control should federal government have? Issues like gun ownership, abortion, gay marriage, air/water quality regulations, national parks, border issues - with a strong federal government - a state's populace may not be in agreement with the "wisdom" of folks who don't live there and have either a different perspective or vested interest in things. It think it is disingenuous to argue that slavery played "no role" in the start of the Civil War. Heck, a read through of the state's declarations of independence that Kincaid posts shows slavery comes up quite frequently.

Moving to modern times, a person living in a suburb may see no need "for anyone to own guns" while someone who lives in a locale where one has to take a larger role in one's personal security may feel like "why the 'f are you trying to mess with my needs?"

What's always been interesting to me (regardless of where one places slavery as an issue of the rationale for the Civil War) is that I suspect most Americans (North and South) if asked, would side with state's rights over the feds. I could be wrong - but suspect most folks would argue - as the secessionists argued that this is part of how the framers of the original constitution saw things - and that this is how "democracy" should work. It was challenging for Lincoln in the first part of the war to get much enthusiasm for a war in the North - for good reason.

So, yeah - slavery was part of why the Civil War was fought - interwoven within the larger issue of state's rights and what kind of union exists.



Edited by kluurs, Jul 13 2015, 09:17 AM.
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Wim
Junior Carp
Most Belgians think this flag has "something to do do with cowboys" as this flag is often used by guys (and gals) who like to dress up like (what they think are) cowboys.
The inner crowd knows damn well that this flag represents the white power movement in Belgium, often connected to motor gangs.

Local authorities aren't really interested in this matter, as long as people don't behave crazy. But it's weird to see that this symbol has been usurped by some white trash and that nobody really seems to care...

Wim
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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It think it is disingenuous to argue that slavery played "no role" in the start of the Civil War.


While I agree with much of what you wrote, and while I understand where you're coming from in the above quote, I have to disagree with the statement.

When I say slavery played no role in the Civil War, I'm not saying slavery didn't happen, or that it wasn't a part of the total picture.

What I'm saying is from the perspective of a Southerner: Most Southerners didn't own slaves. Many had never even seen one. To most Southerners at that time, the issue was over state rights, land rights, taxation, etc. and most could have cared less about slavery, or to better say that, most had no vested interest in keeping a particular race of people in forced labor.

Bear in mind that more Native Americans were sold into slavery than blacks EVER were, yet Southerners weren't the ones who did that. Southerners and native americans lived, worked, played, intermarried, etc. with native americans. Granted, they weren't as willing to do that with blacks, but then neither was the north. The point I'm making is that while the North loves to point its finger at the South and yell "You owned slaves", the truth is that for a long time it was more common for the average citizen in the North to own a slave or two than it was for a Southerner to own any, blacks were just as poorly treated as far as racism goes up north as they were in the South, the north killed off all their indians while the South did not, etc.

So from the perspective of a Southerner, it is perfectly reasonable to say that slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War because Southerners weren't fighting the war to keep slavery. To a Southerner, to claim we fought that war because of slavery is an insult because it ignores the real reasons we fought.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Mikhailoh
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The North also benefited from making it about slavery because that whipped up righteous anger in the northern boys they wanted to recruit.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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John D'Oh
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With regard to the original post, the part of Britain where I grew up heavily supported the Confederacy during the war, since the Industrial north of England, particularly Lancashire, relied so heavily on cotton.

It was claimed that more confederate flags flew in Liverpool than Richmond.

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/archive/sheet/59
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Isn't it funny that when you look at history.....

It was northerners who owned the shipping companies that made money bringing blacks from Africa to the US to be sold as slaves.

It was northern ship owners who brought the Irish over as white slaves indentured servants,

It was northerners who killed all their indians and rolled their heads down the streets during parades...

It was northerners the Irish were getting away from when they migrated South

And it was Northerners who tried to put their foot on the south's neck economically, and when we tried to peacefully put a stop to it, claimed it was about slavery...

and, it was northerners who, while claiming they didn't want the Confederacy to expand into the west because they objected to the "dehumanizing act of enslaving people" so the South had to be stopped - right after winning the Civil War, proceeded to expand into the West by slaughtering indians like Hitler went after Jews.....

I think I'm beginning to see a pattern here......

Wait - it's still going on today!!!!!!!!
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
My God, if it wasn't for the moderating influence of the tolerant South, imagine how racist America would have been back in the day!
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
That's not what I said.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
But it's a fairly good example of the kind of minimization that occurs any time someone from the South tries to explain this issue.
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Copper
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Larry
Jul 13 2015, 12:27 PM
Isn't it funny that when you look at history.....

It was northerners

It was northerners who wrote it.

Win the war, write the history.

That's the deal.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Yep.



But they can't make us shut up..... :D


Let 'em try...
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Larry
Jul 13 2015, 12:27 PM
Isn't it funny that when you look at history.....

It was northerners who owned the shipping companies that made money bringing blacks from Africa to the US to be sold as slaves.

It was northern ship owners who brought the Irish over as white slaves indentured servants,

It was northerners who killed all their indians and rolled their heads down the streets during parades...

It was northerners the Irish were getting away from when they migrated South

And it was Northerners who tried to put their foot on the south's neck economically, and when we tried to peacefully put a stop to it, claimed it was about slavery...

and, it was northerners who, while claiming they didn't want the Confederacy to expand into the west because they objected to the "dehumanizing act of enslaving people" so the South had to be stopped - right after winning the Civil War, proceeded to expand into the West by slaughtering indians like Hitler went after Jews.....

I think I'm beginning to see a pattern here......

Wait - it's still going on today!!!!!!!!
:mellow:

So help me, Larry made some good points! :P A lot of that's true. I'm not saying this to anyone in particular, but the grade school view that the righteous North were victorious in defeating the amoral Southern slavers is ridiculous. America had slavery in the mid-1800s; it was a big and complicated part of the country's evolving economy. Many profited from it, and plenty others from the North and the South had little to do with it.

I go back to my comment about why we even had slaves in the first place. What makes more sense? That a bunch of evil white guys got together and devised elaborate, hemisphere-crossing schemes to oppress a bunch of foreigners, or did it make economic sense based on the day's labor and production methods? Hell option 2 is not only closer to the mark but it's a lot more frightening.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Copper
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The pyramid must be removed from the dollar bill.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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kluurs
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Larry
Jul 13 2015, 12:06 PM
Quote:
 
It think it is disingenuous to argue that slavery played "no role" in the start of the Civil War.


While I agree with much of what you wrote, and while I understand where you're coming from in the above quote, I have to disagree with the statement.

When I say slavery played no role in the Civil War, I'm not saying slavery didn't happen, or that it wasn't a part of the total picture.

What I'm saying is from the perspective of a Southerner: Most Southerners didn't own slaves. Many had never even seen one. To most Southerners at that time, the issue was over state rights, land rights, taxation, etc. and most could have cared less about slavery, or to better say that, most had no vested interest in keeping a particular race of people in forced labor.

Bear in mind that more Native Americans were sold into slavery than blacks EVER were, yet Southerners weren't the ones who did that. Southerners and native americans lived, worked, played, intermarried, etc. with native americans. Granted, they weren't as willing to do that with blacks, but then neither was the north. The point I'm making is that while the North loves to point its finger at the South and yell "You owned slaves", the truth is that for a long time it was more common for the average citizen in the North to own a slave or two than it was for a Southerner to own any, blacks were just as poorly treated as far as racism goes up north as they were in the South, the north killed off all their indians while the South did not, etc.

So from the perspective of a Southerner, it is perfectly reasonable to say that slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War because Southerners weren't fighting the war to keep slavery. To a Southerner, to claim we fought that war because of slavery is an insult because it ignores the real reasons we fought.

I understand - most Southerners did not own slaves. They were fighting for their state/country.

At the same time I think your argument overstretches inasmuch as states declaring the reason for their leaving the Union prominently stated the reasons...

e.g.

Mississippi -

"A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth."

South Carolina
"A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery."


Texas
"Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. "

Virginia
"The people of Virginia, in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in Convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under the said Constitution were derived from the people of the United States, and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression; and the Federal Government, having perverted said powers, not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern Slaveholding States."


The
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Aqua Letifer
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Copper
Jul 13 2015, 01:37 PM
The pyramid must be removed from the dollar bill.
Heck, son, the pyramid is just the tip of the iceberg! We're printing in colored money now! You know what happens when they start printing in colored money!*


*I just learned about this particular conspiracy theory. Fascinating in the Star Trek sense.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Larry
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Kluurs, the reason was state rights and taxation. The *issue* they chose to use was slavery, one of the reasons they chose slavery was because slaves represented a huge investment in capital, and while the North paid their slave owners for the slaves that were set free, the federal government let the southern states know that they had no intention of doing the same for them.

Another key point you're missing is the distinction of the term "slave states" and "Free states" and how that mattered when navigating through the bureaucracy of the federal government at the time.

In short, it really doesn't matter what they wrote concerning slavery in their declarations of secession.

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Larry
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So help me, Larry made some good points!



Here's another point you might not be aware of.

The Irish came here in waves - most of them as indentured servants. In other words.... slaves with an end in sight.

Ships need ballast low in the ship to keep it upright in the water. When your cargo is in boxes, it's quite simple - just put some of the boxes in the ship's hold. But when your cargo needs air to breathe, food to eat, sunlight to keep from getting sick, a place to use the bathroom, etc.... if you plan on getting them to your destination alive, you can't put them in the hold.

Slaves had monetary value. Any slave who didn't survive the trip was money lost. Irish people on the other hand.... the only value they had to the ship owners was as ballast....

Agree to be ballast, get a free ride to america. IF.... you also agreed to work as an indentured servant for a period of time.

The result: Lots of Irish people died and were tossed into the ocean during those trips hauling blacks to America to be sold as slaves. The irish who survived were subjected to racist treatment, and word soon spread among the Irish that once your term as a white slave servant was over, if you headed South you would find land that looked almost like home, you could earn a living farming like you did in Ireland, and the people didn't really care that you were Irish. Even the indians were friendly. lol

Edited by Larry, Jul 13 2015, 03:35 PM.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Copper
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Racism

A dialog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJJpziU7wSs


The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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George K
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Copper
Jul 14 2015, 06:09 AM
I loved that scene.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
A Walter Williams piece that is most interesting reading.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/07/walter-e-williams/the-war-of-1861/
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Mikhailoh
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George K
Jul 14 2015, 06:26 AM
Copper
Jul 14 2015, 06:09 AM
I loved that scene.
Me too. I laughed so loud I woke my wife up.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Luke's Dad
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We get it, some people don't see the stars and bars as racist. That's fine. But if you can't see why an entire race finds it distressing and objectionable, then you have little or no compassion.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Nobody's Sock
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Luke's Dad
Jul 14 2015, 12:44 PM
We get it, some people don't see the stars and bars as racist. That's fine. But if you can't see why an entire race finds it distressing and objectionable, then you have little or no compassion.
:thumb:
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Copper
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Luke's Dad
Jul 14 2015, 12:44 PM
an entire race finds it distressing and objectionable

To be honest most of the race in question wouldn't recognize it one way or the other.

It's probably limited to those in the US.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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