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Confederate flags spotted outside the US
Topic Started: Jul 11 2015, 12:20 PM (3,378 Views)
Catseye
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Pisa-Carp
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33471885


In Italy, Cyprus, Croatia, UK, Luxembourg, Portugal, Canada, Spain . . .

and UAE? :ermm:
"How awful a knowledge of the truth can be." -- Sophocles, Oedipus Rex
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Copper
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Shortstop
Sure, why not?

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
The Confederate Flag never had a damned thing to do with slavery, never had a damned thing to do with racism. Just because a bunch of racists co-opted it is beside the point. A bunch of racists co-opted Christianity (Westboro Baptist) too, but you can't claim Christianity is based on Westboro because of that. Equally so, to claim the rebel flag is racist is doing the exact same thing.

What you're seeing is just one more example of our heritage being taken away.

One piece at a time.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Jul 11 2015, 01:58 PM
A bunch of racists co-opted Christianity (Westboro Baptist) too, but you can't claim Christianity is based on Westboro because of that.
Lots do Larry, lots do.
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Larry
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Yes, I know.

They're called "liberals"..... lol


Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Yesterday it was marriage.

Today it's the Confederate flag.

Whatever will they do when the more extreme among them go after the US flag tomorrow.....

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
For those of you who dislike change, how about this one?

Posted Image

Personally, I rather like it.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
Don't why Southerners just don't fly this flag, the original Stars and Bars. Most Americans can't identify it anyway.

Posted Image
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Larry
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Because that wasn't the flag their ancestors fought and died under.

And they didn't fight and die under that flag because of slavery, they fought and died under that flag defending their land.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Jul 11 2015, 08:12 PM
Because that wasn't the flag their ancestors fought and died under.

And they didn't fight and die under that flag because of slavery, they fought and died under that flag defending their land.

I was actually joking. Even many Southerners don't know that the CSA actually had many flags during the course of its short life, and that what is commonly referred to as the "Confederate flag" is actually the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, and was never an official flag of the CSA.

And yes, Southerners did fight and die for slavery, the sine qua non of the Civil War.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Larry
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Actually, they didn't.

Most of the men who signed up to fight in that war were volunteers, hardly any of them owned slaves, or cared about defending slavery one way or the other. It was entirely about state rights.

The only reason slavery was even brought into things was not to argue over whether slavery was acceptable or not - both sides had slaves. The issue was over who decided if it was acceptable or not - the states, or a federal government.

We're still having that same issue today - who decides certain things.. the states, or an all powerful federal government.

Should we have another civil war in the future, it will be over the issue of states rights vs. the federal government. I can assure you that one side will claim the war is about abortion, or gay marriage, or "white privilege" or any one of the numerous bones of contention today. I can also assure you that 100 to 200 years from now, when people are discussing the Civil War II, they will argue that it wasn't about states rights, but about the social issue put forth by the victor.

So no. The Civil War was *not* about slavery.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
Even many Southerners don't know that the CSA actually had many flags during the course of its short life, and that what is commonly referred to as the "Confederate flag" is actually the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, and was never an official flag of the CSA.


Actually, the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia is a derivation of the 2nd and 3rd official flag of the Confederate States. There were 3 different official flags of the Confederacy, the second and third one using the now familiar confederate flag (Northern Virginia Army flag) in the top left corner where our current flag has the blue patch of stars.

This familiar pattern became popular because in battle, it was hard to distinguish the official Confederate flag from the US flag. By making it square, and eliminating the stripes or white area found on the other flags, it became easier for them to tell their soldiers from the union soldiers during battle.

So in that sense, the rebel flag was the (unofficial, I grant you) preferred flag of the confederate soldiers, not just in Northern Virginia, but all across the South. And so, yes, the rebel flag was THE flag Southern men fought and died under.



Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Why was the Civil War started? Some interesting reading here.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Jul 11 2015, 08:51 PM
Actually, they didn't.

Most of the men who signed up to fight in that war were volunteers, hardly any of them owned slaves, or cared about defending slavery one way or the other. It was entirely about state rights.

The only reason slavery was even brought into things was not to argue over whether slavery was acceptable or not - both sides had slaves. The issue was over who decided if it was acceptable or not - the states, or a federal government.

We're still having that same issue today - who decides certain things.. the states, or an all powerful federal government.

Should we have another civil war in the future, it will be over the issue of states rights vs. the federal government. I can assure you that one side will claim the war is about abortion, or gay marriage, or "white privilege" or any one of the numerous bones of contention today. I can also assure you that 100 to 200 years from now, when people are discussing the Civil War II, they will argue that it wasn't about states rights, but about the social issue put forth by the victor.

So no. The Civil War was *not* about slavery.

The argument that the South was fighting for "States' Rights" and not slavery is the cornerstone of the "Lost Cause" myth. You're right, most of the men who signed up to fight for the Confederacy were not slave owners and were not fighting for slavery per se, but for the defense of their homes, their states, and their liberties.

But their military and political leaders were very clear that they were fighting not only for the preservation of slavery, but for its expansion into the territories. States' Rights had very little to do with it. In fact, prior to the Civil War, Southern politicians introduced bills into Congress intended to muzzle the abolitionist press in the Northern States, a violation of not only "States' Rights", but freedom of the press as well. So much for liberty!

If you look at the secession statements of the Southern states, they all mention the preservation of slavery as one of the main reasons for seceding; South Carolina, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and Texas list it as the primary reason. Both Jeff Davis and Alexander Stephens declared slavery to be the main cause for seceding. Later in the war, when Southern diplomats were trying to enlist the support of Great Britain by reframing their cause as States' Rights, the Richmond newspaper "Southern Punch" responded with outrage:
Quote:
 
It is an easy task, we think, to show up this new-fangled heresy - a heresy calculated to do us no good, for it cannot deceive foreign statesmen nor peoples, nor mislead any one here nor in Yankeeland. . . Our doctrine is this: WE ARE FIGHTING FOR INDEPENDENCE THAT OUR GREAT AND NECESSARY DOMESTIC INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY SHALL BE PRESERVED, and for the preservation of other institutions of which slavery is the groundwork.

After the war, many Southern veterans and politicians also reiterated what the war was about for them:
Quote:
 
In a word, the South determined to fight for her property right in slaves; and in order to do so, it was necessary for her resist the change which the Abolitionists proposed to make under the Constitution of the United States as construed by them. . . Upon this issue the South went to war, I repeat that the people of the South had the right to fight for their property.

Quote:
 
I've always understood that we went to war on account of the thing we quarreled with the North about, I've never heard of any other cause than slavery.

Quote:
 
Local self-government temporarily destroyed may be recovered and ultimately retained. The other thing for which we fought is so complex in its composition, so delicate in its breath, so incomparable in its symmetry, that, being once destroyed, it is forever destroyed. This other thing for which we fought was the supremacy of the white man's civilization in the country which he proudly claimed his own; "in the land which the Lord his God had given him;" founded upon the white man's code of ethics, in sympathy with the white man's traditions and ideals.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Jul 11 2015, 09:04 PM
Actually, the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia is a derivation of the 2nd and 3rd official flag of the Confederate States.
Other way round, I think.

But how about this... in the past 150 years since the Civil War, generations of brave men and women from the South have fought for their beliefs, their loved ones and their fellow citizens, rendering selfless service and dying on the field of honor under this banner:

Posted Image

This is the legacy and heritage that Southerners, and all Americans, should embrace.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
But their military and political leaders were very clear that they were fighting not only for the preservation of slavery, but for its expansion into the territories. States' Rights had very little to do with it. In fact, prior to the Civil War, Southern politicians introduced bills into Congress intended to muzzle the abolitionist press in the Northern States, a violation of not only "States' Rights", but freedom of the press as well. So much for liberty!

If you look at the secession statements of the Southern states, they all mention the preservation of slavery as one of the main reasons for seceding; South Carolina, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and Texas list it as the primary reason. Both Jeff Davis and Alexander Stephens declared slavery to be the main cause for seceding. Later in the war, when Southern diplomats were trying to enlist the support of Great Britain by reframing their cause as States' Rights, the Richmond newspaper "Southern Punch" responded with outrage:


You're still missing the point.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
But how about this... in the past 150 years since the Civil War, generations of brave men and women from the South have fought for their beliefs, their loved ones and their fellow citizens, rendering selfless service and dying on the field of honor under this banner:


So in other words, screw our great grandfathers and all they suffered for, just move on and talk about things as if the Civil War didn't happen, the men who fought and died in that war don't matter, eliminate the flag that rallied them to battle in defense of their land, and talk about something else..

No thanks. :)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-schweitzer/slavery-and-the-civil-war_b_849066.html

Quote:
 
Yes, slavery was of course the central point of contention, but as an example of state sovereignty versus federal authority. The war was fought over state's rights and the limits of federal power in a union of states. The perceived threat to state autonomy became an existential one through the specific dispute over slavery. The issue was not slavery per se, but who decided whether slavery was acceptable, local institutions or a distant central government power. That distinction is not one of semantics: this question of local or federal control to permit or prohibit slavery as the country expanded west became increasingly acute in new states, eventually leading to that fateful artillery volley at Fort Sumter.


Quote:
 
Specifically, eleven southern states seceded from the Union in protest against federal legislation that limited the expansion of slavery claiming that such legislation violated the tenth amendment, which they argued trumped the Supremacy Clause. The war was indeed about protecting the institution of slavery, but only as a specific case of a state's right to declare a federal law null and void. Southern states sought to secede because they believed that the federal government had no authority to tell them how to run their affairs. The most obvious and precipitating example was the North's views on slavery. So yes, the South clearly fought to defend slavery as a means of protecting their sordid economic system and way of life, but they did so with slavery serving as the most glaring example of federal usurpation of state powers of self-determination.



Now, to burst another bubble: The North didn't fight because they wanted to END slavery, as is typically told. They owned slaves too. The North fought specifically for the purpose of stopping the Southern states from seceding. Just as the South was only using the issue of slavery as a tool to achieve their real purpose, the North used slavery in exactly the same way - as a tool to achieve *their* real purpose.

And the real purpose had absolutely *nothing* to do with slavery, on either side.

Quote:
 
The war would be fought (by the North) to prevent those states from seceding, not to destroy the institution of slavery. The war would be fought over different interpretations of our founding document.


Quote:
 
But freedom for slaves did not. President Lincoln did not issue the Emancipation Proclamation until January 1, 1863, more than one and a half years after the war started. His goal was initially to preserve the Union, and he only issued that proclamation when he felt doing so would promote that objective. One could argue that if the primary cause of the war was slavery then Lincoln's first act would have been to free them. Historians have written many volumes on Lincoln's timing and motivation, but one thing is clear: slavery was not his first priority.


Yours is a reinvention of history.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Kincaid
Jul 11 2015, 09:43 PM
Why was the Civil War started? Some interesting reading here.
Which proves my case.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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AndyD
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Larry, have you ever had your ears tested?
Every morning the soul is once again as good as new, and again one offers it to one's brothers & sisters in life.

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AndyD
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Larry
Jul 11 2015, 02:23 PM
Yes, I know.

They're called "liberals"..... lol


The humour of an ignoramous.
Every morning the soul is once again as good as new, and again one offers it to one's brothers & sisters in life.

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Eat shit and die, Andy.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Nobody's Sock
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Fulla-Carp
Whatever you Southern revisionists want to say, the fact is, your Southern ancestors got their Southern asses handed to them. They picked the wrong fight, and as a result, slavery is finished. For you to even bicker about this stupid flag and what it stood for is the most idiotic thing ever. Abe said slavery was bad, (and who of you here disagree?), your side, (the ones in charge at least), said "fvck you Abe, we need our slaves so we can make money easier". And yes, most of the fighting Confederacy were illiterate dumb poor folks, who were conned into thinking it was about the North just wanting to take their land and tell them how to live. It's that friggin simple you stupid jackass.

I personally wish that you could secede. You'd be the Confederated States of Stupidity. The US (Us liberal elitist Yankees) would be sending you aid like we do to every other country that can't take care of itself. The South only leads this country in poverty, obesity, stupidity, alligators, and number of guns per household. You're like the Aborigines of America.

The South has held this country back with your backwards inbred (snark1) thinking. The Electoral College is the saving grace that allows you retards (snark2) to get your way in this country. Amazing that you tilt towards the party that caters only to the rich. (oh but they stand for our guns and our Bible). The poorest people in our country are voting for the bastards that only pay homage to the corporate slime who have decimated our country. Yeah, I know, the Democrats aren't much better when it comes to serving the those with the deep pockets. But at least they aren't totally ignorant to the moral issues of the day. Do you think if Jesus were here today, that he'd be a Republican? Really? LOL!!

And for the life of me, I don't understand how a Native American Indian like you are such a Bible Thumper. You detest everything the White Man brought, but not his God? If I were a native of some country that got overran by another race, the last thing I would ever do is take on their God. You're so friggin stupid it's comical. I have to admit, I love reading the next idiotic rant from your stupid ass. I makes for great entertainment.

You do nothing but complain about what's wrong with this country but do nothing to change it. You think Jeb and The Donald are reading your rants here? You're a worthless old man. Go retire on your 100 acre farm with all your cattle and Asian beatches.

Valdez is so much more coherent than you. Ballsqueeze? What? Are you 10 years old? Get a life. You really are a caricature.
Edited by Nobody's Sock, Jul 12 2015, 01:53 AM.
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
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Yep, a lot of hate in that 'ol flag...Or at least that's what some of the Japanese on Okinawa thought...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Nobody's Sock
Jul 12 2015, 01:39 AM
Whatever you Southern revisionists want to say, the fact is, your Southern ancestors got their Southern asses handed to them. They picked the wrong fight, and as a result, slavery is finished. For you to even bicker about this stupid flag and what it stood for is the most idiotic thing ever. Abe said slavery was bad, (and who of you here disagree?), your side, (the ones in charge at least), said "fvck you Abe, we need our slaves so we can make money easier". And yes, most of the fighting Confederacy were illiterate dumb poor folks, who were conned into thinking it was about the North just wanting to take their land and tell them how to live. It's that friggin simple you stupid jackass.

I personally wish that you could secede. You'd be the Confederated States of Stupidity. The US (Us liberal elitist Yankees) would be sending you aid like we do to every other country that can't take care of itself. The South only leads this country in poverty, obesity, stupidity, alligators, and number of guns per household. You're like the Aborigines of America.

The South has held this country back with your backwards inbred (snark1) thinking. The Electoral College is the saving grace that allows you retards (snark2) to get your way in this country. Amazing that you tilt towards the party that caters only to the rich. (oh but they stand for our guns and our Bible). The poorest people in our country are voting for the bastards that only pay homage to the corporate slime who have decimated our country. Yeah, I know, the Democrats aren't much better when it comes to serving the those with the deep pockets. But at least they aren't totally ignorant to the moral issues of the day. Do you think if Jesus were here today, that he'd be a Republican? Really? LOL!!

And for the life of me, I don't understand how a Native American Indian like you are such a Bible Thumper. You detest everything the White Man brought, but not his God? If I were a native of some country that got overran by another race, the last thing I would ever do is take on their God. You're so friggin stupid it's comical. I have to admit, I love reading the next idiotic rant from your stupid ass. I makes for great entertainment.

You do nothing but complain about what's wrong with this country but do nothing to change it. You think Jeb and The Donald are reading your rants here? You're a worthless old man. Go retire on your 100 acre farm with all your cattle and Asian beatches.

Valdez is so much more coherent than you. Ballsqueeze? What? Are you 10 years old? Get a life. You really are a caricature.
Excuse me, you dumb bastard, but what rock did you crawl out from under?

About the only thing you got right in that rant, was the sentiment that you wish the South would have been successful in its succession.

You bunch of Damnyankees invaded a sovreign nation with many paid conscripts (mainly unemployed Irish) in your army, since the monied among you wouldn't fight. It wasn't until later in the war that many of your cowards were forced out and had to fight.

And yes, the Union managed to defeat the South. Took you over 4 years and we stacked your dead up like cordwood, when most of the time the Union was a better equipped and better fed army. Without Grant (not much of a general, but he didn't mind running up the butcher's bill for a victory) and Sherman (possibly the best you had), the war might have ended in a stalemate.

Your avatar is most appropriate. It signifies a drunken louse whose only redeeming feature is the ability to create feces for the compost pile.

Have a nice day, motorscooter. :)
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Mikhailoh
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President Barack Obama was in the Oval Office when his telephone rang.
"Hello, President Obama” a heavily accented southern voice said. "This is
Archie, down here at Joe's Catfish Shack, in Mobile , and I am callin' to
tell ya’ll that we are officially declaring war on y'all!"

"Well Archie," Barack replied, "This is indeed important news! How big is
your army?"

"Right now," said Archie, after a moments calculation "there is myself, my
cousin Harold, my next-door-neighbor Randy, and the whole dart team from
Hooters. That makes eight!"

Barack paused. "I must tell you Archie that I have one million men in my
army waiting to move on my command."

"Wow," said Archie. "I'll have to call ya back!"
Sure enough, the next day, Archie called again. “Mr. Obama, the war is still
on! We have managed to acquire some infantry equipment!"

"And what equipment would that be Archie?" Barack asked.

"Well sir, we have two combines, a bulldozer, and Harry’s farm tractor."

President Obama sighed. "I must tell you Archie, that I have 16,000 tanks
and 14,000 armored personnel carriers. Also I've increased my army to one
and a half million since we last spoke."

"Lord above", said Archie, "I'll be getting back to ya."

Sure enough, Archie called again the next day. “President Obama! I am sorry
to have to tell you that we have had to call off this here war."

"I'm sorry to hear that" said Barack. "Why the sudden change of heart?"

Well, sir," said Archie, "we've all sat ourselves down and had a long chat
over sweet tea, and come to realize that there's just no way we can feed
that many prisoners."
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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