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A Mystery For Our Time
Topic Started: May 25 2015, 05:09 AM (333 Views)
Catseye
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Pisa-Carp
I have questions.


1.) How is it that 95 percent of mass market writers have "New York Times Bestseller" printed on their covers?

2.) When many of them can barely write their way out of a paper bag?

3.) Do you think people who had read quality fiction before the great literacy Gotterdammerung now buy these writers out of desperation and thus drive their up their sales numbers undeservedly?

4.) Not that I do that.

5.) Do you think if I submitted my grocery list to Signet that I too could win New York Times Bestseller status?
"How awful a knowledge of the truth can be." -- Sophocles, Oedipus Rex
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Because the NY times lists the 20 best selling books each week, for fiction, non-fiction, and myriad specialty genres. So thousands of books per year end up on the list.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Catseye
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jon-nyc
May 25 2015, 05:18 AM
Because the NY times lists the 20 best selling books each week, for fiction, non-fiction, and myriad specialty genres. So thousands of books per year end up on the list.
Sure, Jon, but that's not what I'm talking about. There was a time when NYT Bestseller on a cover meant something, and didn't make it to mass market outlets nearly as often as it does now. You knew when you bought that book, you were getting the cream.

Now it's almost meaningless.
"How awful a knowledge of the truth can be." -- Sophocles, Oedipus Rex
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Copper
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Shortstop

There is more cream now, it's a bigger bucket.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Catseye
May 25 2015, 05:26 AM
jon-nyc
May 25 2015, 05:18 AM
Because the NY times lists the 20 best selling books each week, for fiction, non-fiction, and myriad specialty genres. So thousands of books per year end up on the list.
Sure, Jon, but that's not what I'm talking about. There was a time when NYT Bestseller on a cover meant something, and didn't make it to mass market outlets nearly as often as it does now. You knew when you bought that book, you were getting the cream.

Now it's almost meaningless.
Honestly, the NYT bestseller list doesn't mean what you're implying and never did.

Our best fiction isn't ever listed there. The NYT Bestseller list is a measure of popularity, not writing quality. And it carries a lot of weight because people want to be entertained, they want a good, fun story. The list never has been about what's best or even good.

You want fiction that will knock you on your ass, you gotta look to the university presses. I'll put a Janet Peery or Robert Boswell up against a David Baldacci or Anthony Doer any day.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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George K
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Finally
Aqua Letifer
May 25 2015, 06:56 AM
The NYT Bestseller list is a measure of popularity, not writing quality.
That's why it's called the "NYT Bestseller list" and not the "NYT Best list".
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Catseye
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Quote:
 
The NYT Bestseller list is a measure of popularity, not writing quality. And it carries a lot of weight because people want to be entertained, they want a good, fun story. The list never has been about what's best or even good.


Aqua, that's why I made a point of writing 'mass market'. Of course I'm aware that topflight writing rarely equates with mass market tastes. I know what NYT bestseller means. But I contend that there was a time when that phrase on the cover was reserved for writers who just plain wrote better, knew their craft better, gave better value, than today.

Even if your goal as a writer is to write 'good, fun stories', you still had to know how to write. Some of the stuff I've read in the last few years I wouldn't line a birdcage with.

There's a story, an art student once asked Picasso how to become an artist, and Picasso said, 'First learn how to draw a straight line'. A lot of the writers with "NYT bestseller" on their covers don't even do that well.

I read mass market stuff in addition to other things, have done my whole life. I know what I'm saying is true. I just can't put my finger on what is going on exactly. I think it has to do with a diminution in critical reading skills as well as writing skill; that is, more of the reading public is satisfied with lesser quality writing.

I don't know. I guess maybe Copper said it best: A bigger pot, and maybe lower acceptance standards by publishers, especially with e-publishing snapping at their heels.
"How awful a knowledge of the truth can be." -- Sophocles, Oedipus Rex
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Okay, I see where you're going with this, but I think you're looking in the wrong direction.

The NYT Bestsellers list has, since its inception, been based on sales reports from wholesalers, indie shops and chains. They have not then, nor do they now, have folks who weigh in on writing quality when making the list. It's all done by the market. The folks making the lists would openly tell you this.

But here's what I think you're really getting at:

Quote:
 
I read mass market stuff in addition to other things, have done my whole life. I know what I'm saying is true. I just can't put my finger on what is going on exactly. I think it has to do with a diminution in critical reading skills as well as writing skill; that is, more of the reading public is satisfied with lesser quality writing.


This is my take on that.

What do most Americans care about? Well, providing for yourself is essential, but it's a bonus if you can get more things: home ownership is better than renting, a larger home for your family is better than a smaller one, a better school district is also important, etc. As for what we're supposed to do with our lives, well we're supposed to stay employed, be self-sustaining. Some say starting a family is good, some say community involvement is important, too. But no one's gonna speak ill of a guy who simply pays his bills.

Where do the arts factor in here? They don't.

The average age an American citizen stops learning the mechanics of how to draw is 8; right about the time art classes stop becoming mandatory. They'll carry that 8-year-old knowledge with them their entire lives because out in the real world of office e-mails, spreadsheets and client phone calls, there's no reason to know how to draw. So, sure, we don't know dick about illustration, sculpture, etc.

Writing is a little better; most of us cap at about age 14-17. You see this in the level of sophistication found in the average office e-mail. More and more, we're adopting phrases and terminology from adolescents. "Awesome" now just means "I like this." And of course, yeah, you can see this in the books toward which we gravitate. There's a reason why we'll read Fifty Shades of Gray or Twilight, but not The Goldfinch, even though that one's still pretty accessible.

Music, too. I don't know about actual trends in this particular area, but I think I can make a pretty educated guess, because I visit a music shop about once a week here and always—always—I see the same thing: the occasional high school kid maybe, but mostly it's parents getting an instrument for their kid's weekend lessons. Once in a blue moon I'll see another amateur player in there with me. It's no wonder frivolous, synthetic dance music is so popular today.

Speculation broadens here, but I think that a great deal many of us go to work, come home, get the family things taken care of and are fully content using up the remains of our free time by being content sponges. We sit back and let other people enthrall and entertain us, rather than getting into the thick of something ourselves. Because if we did that, then we'd start to learn through our doing, become better judges and start to expect more.

If that makes me a snob then so be it, because I'm completely comfortable with expecting others to get more excited to make things.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Catseye
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Quote:
 
Speculation broadens here, but I think that a great deal many of us go to work, come home, get the family things taken care of and are fully content using up the remains of our free time by being content sponges. We sit back and let other people enthrall and entertain us, rather than getting into the thick of something ourselves. Because if we did that, then we'd start to learn through our doing, become better judges and start to expect more.



And then we'd grow and maybe scare ourselves with our own power. :)

Maybe too, there is a resentment, unfocused and inarticulate, of the demands dumped on us by a compicated world, so at the end of the day we feel we've earned the right to chillax and opt out of our own lives. Sad, if so.

I like your line of reasoning.
"How awful a knowledge of the truth can be." -- Sophocles, Oedipus Rex
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
My wife is a voracious reader, but the couple of times I've tried to read what she's reading I am so disappointed in the quality. For me the fiction isn't good or fun. It's painfully contrived, clumsily constructed, and frustrating to read. Often these books contain great plot elements and an engaging story line, but the dialogue and characters are so poorly done that I wish the ideas had ended up in the hands of a real craftsman. I mean, James Patterson must put out about 60 books a year.

Give me Harper Lee any day. Or Maurice Sendak. I understand he worked over Where the Wild Things Are for a great long while until it was just right.
Edited by Kincaid, May 25 2015, 11:07 AM.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Kincaid
May 25 2015, 11:06 AM
... but the couple of times I've tried to read what she's reading I am so disappointed in the quality. For me the fiction isn't good or fun. It's painfully contrived, clumsily constructed, and frustrating to read. Often these books contain great plot elements and an engaging story line, but the dialogue and characters are so poorly done that I wish the ideas had ended up in the hands of a real craftsman. ...
Say, you wouldn't have be an English major back in the days, would you? ;)
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