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Heather Had Two Mommies
Topic Started: Apr 23 2015, 08:20 AM (1,609 Views)
Jolly
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The Truth is out there.
http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/17/dear-gay-community-your-kids-are-hurting/
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Interesting. But this is just a single case. We need more data.
Attempto!
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Copper
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Shortstop
Shocking
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
itís only now, as I watch my children loving and being loved by their father each day, that I can see the beauty and wisdom in traditional marriage and parenting.



This is what's lacking in many, many areas of today's society - wisdom. Society is in a downward spiral as it chases after touchy feely bullsht so we don't offend one tiny minority or another, God help us if we express a viewpoint that might offend them... meanwhile a generation is growing up with many of them being used as guinea pigs in perverted social experiments, with untold damage being done, all in the name of "diversity".

F*ck diversity. There's a reason for having a mother and a father in a child's life, and unless you can give that to a kid, leave them the hell alone.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
If everybody who could screw a kid up with their decisions was prevented from raising children, mankind would die out pretty quickly.

The most messed up people come from all kinds of places.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Irrelevent.

No one is perfect. There will always be parents who shouldn't be parents, or who do a poor job of it. That has nothing to do with this issue.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Jolly
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The Truth is out there.
Klaus
Apr 23 2015, 12:45 PM
Interesting. But this is just a single case. We need more data.
You know, there's some things that you just don't need data for...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Nunatax
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Middle Aged Carp
Jolly
Apr 23 2015, 05:43 PM
Klaus
Apr 23 2015, 12:45 PM
Interesting. But this is just a single case. We need more data.
You know, there's some things that you just don't need data for...
Oh yes you do. Some factors at play in this specific case:
- She did have a father first, the fact that he disappeared from her life when she was about 2 or 3 years old must already have left a deep scar regardless of her mother being gay
- The former situation happened in spite of her mother already realizing she was gay before even getting married, but as she points out in the article "things were a little different back then"
- She grew up in a "tight-knit community of gay and lesbian friends"

If things had not been a little different back then (i.e. if being gay/lesbian would have already been more broadly accepted...), then her mother would never have married her father and she would never have been born in the first place. If in that case her mother had gotten married to another woman back then, there would have been two options to have a baby: adopt one or get pregnant through sperm of a male donor. Either way, none of the resulting children would have seen their father abandon them.
In addition, one of the main reasons "tight-knit" communities of gay and lesbian friends existed (and still do) is because they felt (and in many cases still feel) like outcasts. We should live amongst eachother as if it is the most normal thing in the world (which it is, really). As soon as we achieve that, there will no longer be a need for tight-knit communities of gay and lesbian friends and children growing up with same-sex parents will experience their childhood in a much more natural way.
All of this makes her story unsuitable to judge whether or not a child growing up with same-sex parents is in such a bad situation.

Now I wonder if she would also have written a book if her father had left and her mother would simply have raised her alone. She would have missed a father in her life just as much, but she would also have missed the love and care of her mother's new partner. And that is really what is very interesting here. I feel sorry for her that she was abandoned by her father and certainly respect her feelings, but the conclusion that she draws (i.e. that same-sex marriage and parenting are bad) is quite short-sighted.

You seem somewhat familiar. Have I threatened you before?
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Nunatax
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Middle Aged Carp
Larry
Apr 23 2015, 02:20 PM
Quote:
 
itís only now, as I watch my children loving and being loved by their father each day, that I can see the beauty and wisdom in traditional marriage and parenting.



This is what's lacking in many, many areas of today's society - wisdom. Society is in a downward spiral as it chases after touchy feely bullsht so we don't offend one tiny minority or another, God help us if we express a viewpoint that might offend them... meanwhile a generation is growing up with many of them being used as guinea pigs in perverted social experiments, with untold damage being done, all in the name of "diversity".

Isn't there touchy feely bullsht in the part you quoted? Her children may be growing up in the "perfect" conditions, but many children are not (and by that I'm not referring to children from same-sex parents).

That no one is perfect is not irrelevant as you pointed out in your other post. What is relevant is a child's general well being and its chances in life given the circumstances it grows up in, and whether or not something can be done to help the child if necessary. Children "miss" all kinds of things and will always be envious of what other kids have and they don't. A rich kid with busy parents may envy the love another kid is getting from its parents, while the latter is envious of all the luxury of the former. Some of these things will define a great part of who they become, such as growing up in very poor family.
A child with a mother and a father of which the latter is a work-a-holic that spends almost no time with his kids, could be raised by two mothers of which one fulfills the role of a father much better than the work-a-holic in the first case.

Quote:
 
F*ck diversity. There's a reason for having a mother and a father in a child's life, and unless you can give that to a kid, leave them the hell alone.


I find such statements incredibly short-sighted. There are so many children out there that either lost their parents or were abandoned by them; many more than could ever be adopted by "a loving and caring mother and father" (speaking of touchy feely bullsht... :rolleyes2: ). You're basically saying that these kids are better left alone either in an orphanage or on the streets than to be adopted by a caring and loving same-sex couple. You can't be serious.
You seem somewhat familiar. Have I threatened you before?
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Jolly
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The Truth is out there.
Nunatax
Apr 23 2015, 11:49 PM
Jolly
Apr 23 2015, 05:43 PM
Klaus
Apr 23 2015, 12:45 PM
Interesting. But this is just a single case. We need more data.
You know, there's some things that you just don't need data for...
Oh yes you do. Some factors at play in this specific case:
- She did have a father first, the fact that he disappeared from her life when she was about 2 or 3 years old must already have left a deep scar regardless of her mother being gay
- The former situation happened in spite of her mother already realizing she was gay before even getting married, but as she points out in the article "things were a little different back then"
- She grew up in a "tight-knit community of gay and lesbian friends"

If things had not been a little different back then (i.e. if being gay/lesbian would have already been more broadly accepted...), then her mother would never have married her father and she would never have been born in the first place. If in that case her mother had gotten married to another woman back then, there would have been two options to have a baby: adopt one or get pregnant through sperm of a male donor. Either way, none of the resulting children would have seen their father abandon them.
In addition, one of the main reasons "tight-knit" communities of gay and lesbian friends existed (and still do) is because they felt (and in many cases still feel) like outcasts. We should live amongst eachother as if it is the most normal thing in the world (which it is, really). As soon as we achieve that, there will no longer be a need for tight-knit communities of gay and lesbian friends and children growing up with same-sex parents will experience their childhood in a much more natural way.
All of this makes her story unsuitable to judge whether or not a child growing up with same-sex parents is in such a bad situation.

Now I wonder if she would also have written a book if her father had left and her mother would simply have raised her alone. She would have missed a father in her life just as much, but she would also have missed the love and care of her mother's new partner. And that is really what is very interesting here. I feel sorry for her that she was abandoned by her father and certainly respect her feelings, but the conclusion that she draws (i.e. that same-sex marriage and parenting are bad) is quite short-sighted.

If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his butt when he hops. If, if, if.

There is no "if". Even the most liberal have to bow down in front of the overwhelming data, that children do best when raised by a mother and a father - not two moms, not two dads, not some mish-mash of multiple wives, multiple husbands or a free-for-all commune.

But sane conversation shouldn't even have to make such a declaration. As I said, there are some things that are pure common sense, reinforced by centuries of practical experience, that are just simple Truth. Much of the reason why a lot of the First World is going to Hell on greased rails, is because many of us have "educated" ourselves beyond our intelligence. We have buried what works, in favor of what makes us feel good. We have built our statistics in the form of a Golden Calf. We have embraced discrimination, in the name of anti-discrimination. Every day we take what is good, what is loving, what is proper, what is chaste, and beat it on the rocks of our enlightenment.

If something doesn't change, it's no wonder much of Europe will cease to exist as it is now, within the next 150 years. But, at least you'll have some new minarets.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
I find such statements incredibly short-sighted. There are so many children out there that either lost their parents or were abandoned by them; many more than could ever be adopted by "a loving and caring mother and father" (speaking of touchy feely bullsht... :rolleyes2: ). You're basically saying that these kids are better left alone either in an orphanage or on the streets than to be adopted by a caring and loving same-sex couple. You can't be serious.


I'm dead serious. But then, I'm not busy spinning so hard that I risk screwing myself into the ground the way you are, so it doesn't surprise me that you see it that way.

I didn't say what you twisted my words into. But now that you mention it, yes, I think a kid would be better off in an orphanage than subjected to a pair of perverts.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Apr 24 2015, 04:16 AM
But now that you mention it, yes, I think a kid would be better off in an orphanage than subjected to a pair of perverts.

Let's see how far you'd go with this.

Do you think it would be better for a kid to stay in orphanages or be adopted by a one-man-&-one-woman couple who are Muslims?

How about adoption by a one-man-&-one-woman couple who are Presbyterians?

How about adoption by a one-man-&-one-woman couple who are Modern Liberals?
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Larry
Apr 24 2015, 04:16 AM
I didn't say what you twisted my words into. But now that you mention it, yes, I think a kid would be better off in an orphanage than subjected to a pair of perverts.

Geez Larry, give it a f*cking rest will you? You don't have to agree with gay adoption, many people have doubts, but you don't have to make your point like this.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Copper
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Shortstop
Nunatax
Apr 23 2015, 11:49 PM
Jolly
Apr 23 2015, 05:43 PM
Klaus
Apr 23 2015, 12:45 PM
Interesting. But this is just a single case. We need more data.
You know, there's some things that you just don't need data for...
Oh yes you do.

That's not data.

If you want to makeup stories with imaginary characters that's fine, but that doesn't make the facts about the girl in this story go away.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Copper
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Shortstop
John D'Oh
Apr 24 2015, 04:39 AM
Larry
Apr 24 2015, 04:16 AM
I didn't say what you twisted my words into. But now that you mention it, yes, I think a kid would be better off in an orphanage than subjected to a pair of perverts.

Geez Larry, give it a f*cking rest will you? You don't have to agree with gay adoption, many people have doubts, but you don't have to make your point like this.

If he's not allowed to make his point like this then the point can't be made.

The perversion is the point.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
John D'Oh
Apr 24 2015, 04:39 AM
Larry
Apr 24 2015, 04:16 AM
I didn't say what you twisted my words into. But now that you mention it, yes, I think a kid would be better off in an orphanage than subjected to a pair of perverts.

Geez Larry, give it a f*cking rest will you? You don't have to agree with gay adoption, many people have doubts, but you don't have to make your point like this.
John, you just made my point.


Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I'm not even sure what your point is.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
I think you're oppressing him with your calls for tolerance.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
What's tolerant about attempting to stifle someone else's opinion?
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Larry
Apr 24 2015, 04:58 AM
What's tolerant about attempting to stifle someone else's opinion?
Most people have a filter between their brain and their mouth. You appear to have an amplifier :lol:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
The filter has been off the other side for years.

I'm just balancing it out.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Jolly
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The Truth is out there.
Axtremus
Apr 24 2015, 04:26 AM
Larry
Apr 24 2015, 04:16 AM
But now that you mention it, yes, I think a kid would be better off in an orphanage than subjected to a pair of perverts.

Let's see how far you'd go with this.

Do you think it would be better for a kid to stay in orphanages or be adopted by a one-man-&-one-woman couple who are Muslims?

How about adoption by a one-man-&-one-woman couple who are Presbyterians?

How about adoption by a one-man-&-one-woman couple who are Modern Liberals?
I'll bite.

I agree with Larry. Better an orphanage - there are some good ones. This one is outstanding:

http://www.lbch.org/
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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taiwan_girl
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Fulla-Carp
Interesting conversation. I can see both sides. However, a kid living as the child of a loving gay couple would be much better off than in a abusive traditional family. There are always going to be people on both sides of the issue and the data can be found to support either the pro or con sides.

While I am sure that Jolly is correct that there are some good orphanages, I do not think that even the best ones are a substitute for a loving family.

Regarding adoption - I think it is interesting that in order to adopt, it is necessary to take a number of parenting classes, meet with a counselor, etc. etc. And people who want to adopt are those that (hopefully) have thought about raising a child. However, nothing similar exists for people who just have a baby. Sometimes they are the least prepared and would benefit the most from classes, etc.
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Ana
Junior Carp
I'm sure if one was to gather the data, we would find more instances of abuse and neglect in the traditional families than with un-traditional ones.

I wonder what the answer would be to all the divorced / single parent families? Should those children go into orphanages as well?
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