Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
On trial for 300,000 counts of accessory to murder
Topic Started: Apr 21 2015, 03:57 AM (628 Views)
Klaus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3048472/Still-defiant-bookkeeper-Auschwitz-sits-arms-folded-court-70-Holocaust-survivors-face-300-000-accessory-murder-charges.html
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mikhailoh
Member Avatar
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Quote:
 
I lost 49 members of my family in the Holocaust,' said Eva Pusztai-Fahidi, 89, from Budapest. 'He must have been there, on the ramp, witnessing the suffering. Now I want to look into his eyes and see him recognise his guilt.

'The Holocaust was made of small men like him, little cogs in the machine. It wasn't just big fish, it was people like Oskar Groening. It doesn't matter what his punishment is, but the verdict. The Holocaust deniers can always say a little old Jewish woman told lies. But they will not be able to deny the words of a single SS man who admits he was there.'


The money quote is right here in bold. She is right. It matters very little what a 93 year old man's punishment is. It's the documentary nature of the trial and his words. I suspect he has paid a price already far greater than Germany could inflict on him - 70 years of guilt, of knowing who he was.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mikhailoh
Member Avatar
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Annnd I just read the rest of it. As I said, what can we do to him that is worse than is life has already been?

But I think of men like him whenever I keep hearing about the 'moderate Muslims'.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
A guy like this would never have been prosecuted after the war or 20 or even 40 years later. The bar for what constitutes a prosecutable role gets lower and lower as this era recedes in time.

I think before the generation has fully passed we'll see someone prosecuted 'just' for membership in the SS or SA.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mikhailoh
Member Avatar
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Maybe they will all have to wear armbands or something.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Horace
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Apr 21 2015, 05:11 AM
A guy like this would never have been prosecuted after the war or 20 or even 40 years later. The bar for what constitutes a prosecutable role gets lower and lower as this era recedes in time.

I think before the generation has fully passed we'll see someone prosecuted 'just' for membership in the SS or SA.
If someone gets prosecuted just for membership in the Hitler Youth, we'll definitely have Godwin'd ourselves.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
George K
Member Avatar
Finally
An interesting twist: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.616615
Quote:
 
Groening has never denied being in Auschwitz. Appearing in the BBC documentary “Auschwitz: The Nazis and the ‘Final Solution” in 2005, he said that pervasive Holocaust denial had led to him to speak out.

“I see it as my task now, at my age, to face up to these things that I experienced, and to oppose the Holocaust deniers who claim that Auschwitz never happened,” he said. “I saw the crematoria, I saw the burning pits.”

Interviewed by Der Spiegel magazine in the same year, he described an incident while on “ramp duty” when he heard a baby crying. “I saw another SS soldier grab the baby by the legs,” he said. “He smashed the baby’s head against the iron side of a truck until it was silent.”

But Groening denied his own culpability in the same interview. “Accomplice would almost be too much for me,” he told Der Spegel. “I would describe my role as a small cog in the gears. If you can describe that as guilt, then I am guilty, but not voluntarily. Legally speaking, I am innocent.”
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
jon-nyc
Apr 21 2015, 05:11 AM
I think before the generation has fully passed we'll see someone prosecuted 'just' for membership in the SS or SA.


So now a U.S. congresswoman suggests punishment for former Nazi party membership.


Quote:
 
It is outrageous that any Nazis were able to receive benefits, but this report also makes clear that the Social Security Administration lacked the legal right to terminate benefits in far too many of these cases,” said Representative Carolyn B. Maloney, the New York Democrat who requested the investigation after new evidence emerged last year of Nazis receiving benefits


(This is referring to legal immigrants from Germany who came after the war, paid into social security during their working life, then took benefits. She thinks that's 'outrageous')


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/31/us/us-paid-residents-linked-to-nazi-crimes-20-million-in-benefits-report-says.html
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
John D'Oh
Member Avatar
MAMIL
The idiocy of somebody who doesn't understand history. They name buildings after von Braun, who used slave labourers and was a member of the SS, but they want to victimize geriatric old men who did nothing more than sign up.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mikhailoh
Member Avatar
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I guess it is true we must always have an enemy.

We are at war with Eastasia. We have always been at war with Eastasia.

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/56045/why-is-oceania-only-at-war-with-one-other-nation
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
George K
Member Avatar
Finally
I wonder if Representative Maloney was in office when Kleagle Byrd was in the Senate.

(brb)

Well, yes. It seems she was.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Horace
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
May 31 2015, 05:44 AM
jon-nyc
Apr 21 2015, 05:11 AM
I think before the generation has fully passed we'll see someone prosecuted 'just' for membership in the SS or SA.


So now a U.S. congresswoman suggests punishment for former Nazi party membership.


Quote:
 
It is outrageous that any Nazis were able to receive benefits, but this report also makes clear that the Social Security Administration lacked the legal right to terminate benefits in far too many of these cases,” said Representative Carolyn B. Maloney, the New York Democrat who requested the investigation after new evidence emerged last year of Nazis receiving benefits


(This is referring to legal immigrants from Germany who came after the war, paid into social security during their working life, then took benefits. She thinks that's 'outrageous')


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/31/us/us-paid-residents-linked-to-nazi-crimes-20-million-in-benefits-report-says.html
The politics of outrage. It's on Jewish people to reject this. None of the rest of us can.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Piano*Dad
Member Avatar
Bull-Carp
I don't know how I come down on this one.

The man has clearly said that he is a witness to history. He denies nothing, and his reason for coming forward was to refute Holocaust denial. For that I give him real credit. On the other hand, he was a part of the world's most despicable industrial killing episode. Even though he didn't pick up a knife and sadistically insert it, he was a part of the active administration of the process. If a capo who prevented escapes is liable, perhaps he is as well. As he says, he'll await legal judgment within the current system. He already knows his moral guilt, and has lived with it for the past 72 years.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
George K
Member Avatar
Finally
http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-right-outcome-for-an-auschwitz-guard-1437000363

Quote:
 
Oskar Gröning, a former SS soldier known as “the bookkeeper of Auschwitz,” was convicted on Wednesday in a German court on 300,000 counts of accessory to murder. Mr. Gröning’s wartime duties included seizing money and other valuables from prisoners arriving at the death camp, then keeping track of what had been taken. Now 94, he was sentenced Thursday to four years in prison.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
7 minutes each.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Aqua Letifer
Member Avatar
ZOOOOOM!
Piano*Dad
May 31 2015, 01:56 PM
The man has clearly said that he is a witness to history. He denies nothing, and his reason for coming forward was to refute Holocaust denial.
If we're talking personal morality, then for me, that's the crux of it. I truly believe that the only thing worse than taking part in the holocaust is trying to convince others it never happened. Because of that, his speaking out against the atrocity does factor in, and I don't think he should serve his sentence in some prison.

House arrest? Sure.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mikhailoh
Member Avatar
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
What punishment can we inflict that is worse than what he has lived with?
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Aqua Letifer
Member Avatar
ZOOOOOM!
I personally don't care about that. You don't get a pass for being emotionally tormented over your part in a human atrocity of historical proportions. But by debunking the Holocaust deniers and reminding others of exactly what happened, he serves society better outside prison than in.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mikhailoh
Member Avatar
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
94 years old.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Klaus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
He'll not go to prison. He's much too old for that.

The whole trial is very symbolic.

I'm also not sure whether I like the legal precedent.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Catseye
Member Avatar
Pisa-Carp
Quote:
 
I truly believe that the only thing worse than taking part in the holocaust is trying to convince others it never happened.


No, it is not worse. Trying to convince others it never happened is not close to being as bad as having taken part in it.

Not to say the denial is a good thing or a harmless thing.

"How awful a knowledge of the truth can be." -- Sophocles, Oedipus Rex
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Larry
Member Avatar
Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
On the other hand, he was a part of the world's most despicable industrial killing episode.



I don't know if it qualifies as "industrial" - but the world's most despicable killing episode occurred right here in the US to the Native Americans.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Create your own social network with a free forum.
« Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic »
Add Reply