Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 3
  • 7
Best summation of Obama I've seen in a while
Topic Started: Mar 22 2015, 11:41 AM (3,625 Views)
Klaus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Mar 23 2015, 01:39 PM
We all see with our own eyes. Different people see different things, and those are their facts. My view and Larry's mostly coincide on this particular matter. Whether he is evil, deranged or just plain deluded, he is a very, very weak leader and his pocket, and ours is getting picked daily.
That may very well be. I don't know much about Obama's domestic policies, and his foreign policy is also not very successful (although his predecessor was, arguably, even worse in that regard).

But let's still keep facts and opinion apart. There is nothing wrong with expressing opinions. There can be good arguments or evidence for opinions. I also have opinions on many topics. But there is an important line one crosses when one starts to declare one's opinions to be facts.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Larry
Member Avatar
Mmmmmmm, pie!
I didn't do that. Every single point made in that article is a proven fact.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
John D'Oh
Member Avatar
MAMIL
Larry
Mar 23 2015, 02:26 PM
Every single point made in that article is a proven fact.

In your opinion, obviously :lol:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Larry
Member Avatar
Mmmmmmm, pie!
No, opinion has nothing to do with ot.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
brenda
Member Avatar
..............
John D'Oh
Mar 23 2015, 02:01 PM
Trump has to find a VP running mate who makes him look like less of a dickweed by comparison. That's going to be a bloody tall order.
Biden might be available ...
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
John D'Oh
Member Avatar
MAMIL
brenda
Mar 23 2015, 04:31 PM
John D'Oh
Mar 23 2015, 02:01 PM
Trump has to find a VP running mate who makes him look like less of a dickweed by comparison. That's going to be a bloody tall order.
Biden might be available ...
I was thinking about another former public servant whose time may have arrived again, and who's a little closer to the Republican base...

Posted Image
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
George K
Member Avatar
Finally
Well, I know Joe Biden. I worked with Joe Biden. That, sir, is no Joe Biden.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
John D'Oh
Member Avatar
MAMIL
He's not even not-Joe the not-the-plumber.

Now, there's an idea!
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
brenda
Member Avatar
..............
John D'Oh
Mar 23 2015, 04:57 PM
brenda
Mar 23 2015, 04:31 PM
John D'Oh
Mar 23 2015, 02:01 PM
Trump has to find a VP running mate who makes him look like less of a dickweed by comparison. That's going to be a bloody tall order.
Biden might be available ...
I was thinking about another former public servant whose time may have arrived again, and who's a little closer to the Republican base...

Posted Image
Party affiliation really doesn't matter with Biden. He's completely qualified for making Trump look good in comparison.
“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.”
~A.A. Milne
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
Klaus
Mar 23 2015, 02:02 PM
Mikhailoh
Mar 23 2015, 01:39 PM
We all see with our own eyes. Different people see different things, and those are their facts. My view and Larry's mostly coincide on this particular matter. Whether he is evil, deranged or just plain deluded, he is a very, very weak leader and his pocket, and ours is getting picked daily.
That may very well be. I don't know much about Obama's domestic policies, and his foreign policy is also not very successful (although his predecessor was, arguably, even worse in that regard).

But let's still keep facts and opinion apart. There is nothing wrong with expressing opinions. There can be good arguments or evidence for opinions. I also have opinions on many topics. But there is an important line one crosses when one starts to declare one's opinions to be facts.
You're tap-dancing.

While some of what Larry is saying can be debated, there are several of his assertions which are fact to the disinterested observer.

You're trying to raise the political fact bar so high, you'd like for them to meet the same standard as scientific law. That's nigh onto an impossible task, no matter what political fact one is discussing. It might buttress your argument, to use a few facts of your own.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
John D'Oh
Member Avatar
MAMIL
The NY Post - upholding the principles of journalistic integrity and unbiased reporting for the generations. We provide the facts, you decide!
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
John D'Oh
Mar 24 2015, 04:52 AM
The NY Post - upholding the principles of journalistic integrity and unbiased reporting for the generations. We provide the facts, you decide!
Ain't nobody pure in the newspaper business, lad.

Not even the New York Slimes or the Washington Compost.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Klaus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Mar 24 2015, 04:36 AM
While some of what Larry is saying can be debated, there are several of his assertions which are fact to the disinterested observer.

You're trying to raise the political fact bar so high, you'd like for them to meet the same standard as scientific law. That's nigh onto an impossible task, no matter what political fact one is discussing. It might buttress your argument, to use a few facts of your own.
I could present you and Larry a very similar list of "facts" assembled by a left-wing person, with similarly vague claims and similar levels of evidence but supporting the other side of the political specturm, with that person insisting that these are all proven "facts". Yet you would presumably be among the first to object that these are not facts.

My point is not that I believe that the negation of these statements are true or "facts". My point is that these cannot be facts in principle because there is a wide range of possible interpretations of the statements and of the evidence.

A fact is something that can be demonstrated to be true to every rational person, and not just persons from the same political camp. One can of course assert large portions of a population to be irrational, but the tin foil hat one needs for that is rather big.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Larry
Member Avatar
Mmmmmmm, pie!
Klaus, you're still using faulty logic as the basis for your argument.

Hypothetical:

It's 3am. You're in bed asleep when you are awakened by the sound of someone breaking into your house. You come downstairs to find ME walking out your busted front door carrying your TV set. You've already called the police, and while you and I discuss your disappointment in me, the cops arrive. They arrest me, take me to jail, There's a police report on file in your local police department.

You get on the forum and tell everyone about catching me burglarizing your home at 3 in the morning. Immediately the forum breaks into two camps - Some members believe you, some don't. Nobody's Sock says he knew I'd get caught doing something like this sooner or later, George says he's known me for over a decade and knows "for a fact" that I would never do such a thing.

While George would be correct, his assertion cannot be considered a "fact". What *can* be considered a fact however, is that I was caught red handed burlarizing your home, and there is an arrest report on file that proves it. My burlarizing your home would be a fact. George's faith in me would be true, but not a fact. Nobody's Sock's opinion of me would be mere opinion, based on his "political camp" so to speak.

There is no "wide range of interpretations" available for the points made in that article. Each and every one of those points that I listed from the article are FACT, just as surely as in the above hypothetical it is a FACT that I burglarized your home. You are skipping over the facts to argue about opinions people will have over those facts. Any interpretation of these facts that you presented from a leftwing audience would be their opinion regarding these facts, just as my take on these facts are my opinion.

But neither side can change this one simple truth - each and every statement I listed is a proven, unarguable fact.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Klaus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Mar 24 2015, 07:10 AM
each and every statement I listed is a proven, unarguable fact.

But people argue about (and deny) it all the time!

Do I need to post links?

You would presumably quickly reject these arguments by putting those people into the "brain-dead liberal" box, but it is ridiculous to say that these are "unarguable facts".
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Larry
Member Avatar
Mmmmmmm, pie!
Just as people would argue about (and deny) that I burglarized your home.

A month after it happened, you'd be able to post peoples' OPINIONS about it, sure. But it wouldn't change the fact that it would be a proven, unarguable fact that I did it.

This is what you're doing in regard to the statements about Obama in this instance. Each statement is a proven fact. You're wanting to dismiss it based on opinions about those facts. So no, it's not ridiculous to call them unarguable facts. What's ridiculous is to try to dismiss these facts by pointing to the ideological opinions generated as a result of those facts.



Of the Pokatwat Tribe

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Klaus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Mar 24 2015, 07:56 AM
Just as people would argue about (and deny) that I burglarized your home.

A month after it happened, you'd be able to post peoples' OPINIONS about it, sure. But it wouldn't change the fact that it would be a proven, unarguable fact that I did it.

This is what you're doing in regard to the statements about Obama in this instance. Each statement is a proven fact. You're wanting to dismiss it based on opinions about those facts. So no, it's not ridiculous to call them unarguable facts. What's ridiculous is to try to dismiss these facts by pointing to the ideological opinions generated as a result of those facts.



Well, then do it for just one of your "facts", Larry.

You claimed that it is a fact that Obama abandoned his allies.

What does this even mean?

It is a much too vague statement to "prove" it. Does it mean "all allies"? Does it mean "some allies"? Does criticizing an ally count as "abandon"? Does "still supporting but supporting a little less" count as "abandon"? If the POTUS does something which he believes to be in the best interest of the ally but is refused by the current government of the ally, does this count as "abandon"?

Quite obviously, regardless of where you draw the line, the line is arbitrary. It is nonsensical to even talk about it being a "fact".

What is the test with which we can decide whether a POTUS has abandoned his allies? Tell me, Larry.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
And 'abandon' is a pretty strong word. Maybe Mubarak was abandoned. He was an ally. But Egypt wasn't abandoned. So does that count?
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jolly
Member Avatar
Geaux Tigers!
jon-nyc
Mar 24 2015, 09:02 AM
And 'abandon' is a pretty strong word. Maybe Mubarak was abandoned. He was an ally. But Egypt wasn't abandoned. So does that count?
I think so, in the same manner the Shah was abandoned.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
Look at the first one, obama 'came for' the banks.

What does that mean? Certainly he didn't come for them in the way Romney might have :lol:

But if you look at bank stocks they have basically tripled since Obama wa in office. So it seems pretty far from being a fact.

In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
Jolly
Mar 24 2015, 09:03 AM
jon-nyc
Mar 24 2015, 09:02 AM
And 'abandon' is a pretty strong word. Maybe Mubarak was abandoned. He was an ally. But Egypt wasn't abandoned. So does that count?
I think so, in the same manner the Shah was abandoned.
Very different in that losing the shah and losing Iran as an ally were equivalent.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
'Uses the IRS to go after critics' - no evidence for this whatsoever. Not a smidgen, as George might say.

'Politicize the DOJ'. Well, again, that's probably not a defensible position, since to prove that it was true you'd need to make the case that it wasn't politicized already when he got to it. Hence my earlier comment about Mr Hoover.

One that I think is objectively true is that he lied to the public. I'm not sure how that differentiates him from the other presidents in my lifetime.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
John D'Oh
Member Avatar
MAMIL
Jolly
Mar 24 2015, 04:57 AM
John D'Oh
Mar 24 2015, 04:52 AM
The NY Post - upholding the principles of journalistic integrity and unbiased reporting for the generations. We provide the facts, you decide!
Ain't nobody pure in the newspaper business, lad.

Not even the New York Slimes or the Washington Compost.
Whilst this is undoubtedly true, my experience is that tabloids are generally worse. The NY Post is very reminiscent in style of British tabloids, which of course is no coincidence.

Of course, you could argue that we get the newspapers we deserve. The same goes for politicians.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Copper
Member Avatar
Shortstop
jon-nyc
Mar 24 2015, 09:04 AM

But if you look at bank stocks they have basically tripled since Obama wa in office. So it seems pretty far from being a fact.


True for some banks, not all

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/savings/map-of-failed-banks.aspx
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
John D'Oh
Member Avatar
MAMIL
I'm sorry, but attempting to pin the blame for failed banks on the Obama administration is nothing short of laughable.

There's plenty of areas where Obama has failed, and I for one am not about to defend his record, but this discussion resembles a bring-your-child-to-work day at the local lunatic asylum.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Create a free forum in seconds.
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic »
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 3
  • 7