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The Ukrainian Question
Topic Started: Oct 22 2014, 06:23 AM (360 Views)
Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!

It's War and Peace, Stupid


John Ransom



If the polls are accurate, the United States can expect a much friendlier government in Kiev after the Ukraine parliamentary elections on October 26th.

“Out will go the bodyguards and mistresses,” reports VOA News, “in are likely to come the street activists and war veterans: Ukraine's next parliament will be pro-Western and strongly nationalist, and it won't be to Russia's liking.”

But that doesn’t mean much if the Obama administration won’t do anything to help Ukraine helps itself.

But there is one compelling reason for pro-Western forces in Kiev to hope for a change of tone from Obama: Just a week after parliamentary elections, the U.S. goes to the polls as well. And while the change in government here might not be as dramatic as that in Ukraine, there remains the possibility that Democrats, out of a drive for survival, will demand from the administration changes in foreign policy and defense policy with an eye to the 2016 presidential elections.

Much of it depends upon the scope of the GOP victory in November. If it’s better than expected, then the pressure will mount on Obama to provide real assistance to Ukraine in it’s fight against Russia. If it’s worse expected, then Obama will have once again proved that perseverance has paid dividends for the progressive wing of the Democrat party.

While Bill Clinton bobbed back to the center after stinging rebukes from voters Obama has said all along that he believes in the power of persistence.

“That whole philosophy of persistence, by the way,” said Obama as he assumed the office of the president, “is one that I’m going to be emphasizing again and again in the months and years to come, as long as I am in this office. I’m a big believer in persistence.”

To many, Obama’s persistence in refusing to help Ukraine—and Iraq-- looks like stubbornness and vanity. To others, it looks like treason.

But even Obama will not remain insulated from the pressures of party politics if his party fails this election cycle half as badly as his foreign and defense policies have failed the country.

While Obama’s popularity balloon has suffered a slow leak ever since he raised taxes on everyone after his successful re-election campaign, nothing has pricked his balloon worse than the wars that Obama masqueraded as peace. While a compliant news media can cover-up for the IRS scandal, they are more or less bound to cover journalists getting beheaded by a JV force of Islamists that Obama promised was on the run.

While a compliant media can try to cover-up the combined failures of Obamacare—failures of intention, omission, commission and execution—they can’t control wars launched by Russia against a supposed U.S. ally. Nor can they cover up that Obama backed the wrong party in Egypt. Or that Obama is very close to ensuring that Baghdad falls to Islamists favored by nobody.

Merely 10,000 U.S. soldiers could secure Baghdad. And this time, it’s very likely they’d have flowers strewn at their feet.

But at least Obama is persistent in his failures.

And the question that’s before voters this fall is whether Obama and the Democrats deserve a reward for their “persistence” or a rebuke for promoting failure.

And the implications are broad for Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Russia, and for all of the Western Democracies.

As it is for ourselves too. The question today is one of war or peace.

"You were given the choice between war and dishonor," said Winston Churchill, as his generation's Obama promised peace in our time. "You chose dishonor and you will have war."

As our country deals with issues of war and dishonor, we should at least be determined to win the wars that threaten us. That's a persistent strategy that predates Obama.

And it's been a winner every time.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
All you have to do to start wars is look weak.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
It's very unfair to compare Obama with Neville Chamberlain. IMHO Chamberlain had a much more difficult job, a heck of a lot fewer resources, and a much more powerful enemy.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Not to mention a more compelling reason for involvement - survival. While I do not favor a weak position on Ukraine, I hardly think our nation's survival is at risk.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Quote:
 
To many, Obama’s persistence in refusing to help Ukraine—and Iraq-- looks like stubbornness and vanity. To others, it looks like treason.


Jolly, why do you take this trash seriously?
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
:uparrow:
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
To some Americans everything Obama does looks like treason. There are doubtless people who'd impeach him for eating spicy food.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Copper
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Shortstop
Aqua Letifer
Oct 22 2014, 08:14 AM
Quote:
 
To many, Obama’s persistence in refusing to help Ukraine—and Iraq-- looks like stubbornness and vanity. To others, it looks like treason.


Jolly, why do you take this trash seriously?

Maybe because the job is to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Aqua Letifer
Oct 22 2014, 08:14 AM
Quote:
 
To many, Obama’s persistence in refusing to help Ukraine—and Iraq-- looks like stubbornness and vanity. To others, it looks like treason.


Jolly, why do you take this trash seriously?
Don't cherry-pick, but contemplate the crux of the piece:

1. Can U.S. politics, particularly a change of majority in the Senate, influence Obama. Or will he dig his heels in, valuing persistence?

2. Does a change in the Ukrainian government change U.S. policy?

3. Does a change in the majority of the Senate influence Obama concerning ISIS and Iraq?

4. Does the U.S. have a vital stake in the national outcome of Ukraine and Iraq?

As for Mr. Obama...

The Constitution of the United States was written to enable the citizens of the U.S. to curtail the power of the government, not to allow the government reasons to expand its power and authority.

I believe Mr. Obama has confused the Constitution with the unwritten rules of a Chicago precinct house.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
The US does not have a vital or even valid stake in the national outcome of Ukraine.

On the other hand and in light of current history, it does have a number of stakes in Iraq.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Jolly
Oct 22 2014, 09:22 AM
Aqua Letifer
Oct 22 2014, 08:14 AM
Quote:
 
To many, Obama’s persistence in refusing to help Ukraine—and Iraq-- looks like stubbornness and vanity. To others, it looks like treason.


Jolly, why do you take this trash seriously?
Don't cherry-pick, but contemplate the crux of the piece:

Don't cherry-pick? This is how it works. If you want to be taken seriously, you don't spout out things that are batshit. Calling Obama's perceived inaction—perceived inaction; you first have to prove that point before you can state it as a fact, and if it's obvious then that should be an easy order—an act of treason is not only insane, but it's so insane it calls into question everything else you're saying.

If you were to outline to me the ways in which ACA isn't financially feasible, and in the middle of your analysis you tell me that George W. Bush was a Muslim figurehead, not only is it alright for me to call you out on that, it's also okay for me to stop taking you seriously.

What's so hard about refraining from hyperbole? Do you think that's actually so hard for political commentators?

As for your questions:

1. The duties of the executive branch of government do not change depending on Senate majority. If we're going to play the fairy-tale game, I'd rather Obama be consistent in his policies, but it's my opinion that he lets constituent perception lead his decision-making, so who cares how he reacts to the Senate.

2. That obviously depends.

3. See #1. The right way to handle ISIS and Iraq has ****-all to do with who's in the Senate.

4. Likely it does.

Quote:
 
As for Mr. Obama...

The Constitution of the United States was written to enable the citizens of the U.S. to curtail the power of the government, not to allow the government reasons to expand its power and authority.

I believe Mr. Obama has confused the Constitution with the unwritten rules of a Chicago precinct house.


We live in a land of professional politicians, whose leaders remain in their chosen field their entire careers. The more our government is responsible for, the more these people are responsible for. It is in the best interest of both Democrats and Republicans to expand the power and authority of government; their only difference lies in what areas they focus on, and on what level.

If you can't see that then you're out of your mind.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
In my view, the second worst single thing to occur as a result of the internet, second only to the proliferation of child pornography, is online magazines such as townhall.com.

IT'S EVEN WORSE THAN TNCR!
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Copper
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Shortstop
AlbertaCrude
Oct 22 2014, 09:31 AM
The US does not have a vital or even valid stake in the national outcome of Ukraine.


Haven't you ever heard of the domino theory?
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
John D'Oh
Oct 22 2014, 10:36 AM
In my view, the second worst single thing to occur as a result of the internet, second only to the proliferation of child pornography, is online magazines such as townhall.com.

IT'S EVEN WORSE THAN TNCR!
In case you have not heard, this is No Hyperbole Day.

Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING, could be worse than TNCR.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
We should change our logo

Posted Image
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
OK, I suppose something COULD be worse....
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
That's the old coffee room, this is more us...

Posted Image

I'm the one on the left. Don't ask what all that brown stuff is.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Oct 22 2014, 10:59 AM
We should change our logo

Posted Image
It's Casper the friendly ghost, reaching up to hug the cute 999 above him. So snuggly! It's a paean to beautiful patterns and reason and to the immortality of ideas. Thanks Casper!
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Copper
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Shortstop

Posted Image
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Quote:
 
If you can't see that then you're out of your mind.


Then consider me out of my mind.

Maybe Jefferson knew what he was talking about.

Quote:
 
"Societies exist under three forms sufficiently distinguishable. 1. Without government, as among our Indians. 2. Under governments wherein the will of every one has a just influence, as is the case in England in a slight degree, and in our states in a great one. 3. Under governments of force: as is the case in all other monarchies and in most of the other republics. To have an idea of the curse of existence under these last, they must be seen. It is a government of wolves over sheep. It is a problem, not clear in my mind, that the 1st. condition is not the best. But I believe it to be inconsistent with any great degree of population. The second state has a great deal of good in it. The mass of mankind under that enjoys a precious degree of liberty and happiness. It has it’s evils too: the principal of which is the turbulence to which it is subject. But weigh this against the oppressions of monarchy, and it becomes nothing. Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem. Even this evil is productive of good. It prevents the degeneracy of government, and nourishes a general attention to the public affairs. I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical.[1] Unsuccesful rebellions indeed generally establish the incroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions, as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Copper
Oct 22 2014, 10:53 AM
AlbertaCrude
Oct 22 2014, 09:31 AM
The US does not have a vital or even valid stake in the national outcome of Ukraine.


Haven't you ever heard of the domino theory?
I seem to recall reading a just a little about it several years back. It doesn't apply to the present situation in Ukraine or states of the former Soviet Union.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
AlbertaCrude
Oct 22 2014, 01:25 PM
Copper
Oct 22 2014, 10:53 AM
AlbertaCrude
Oct 22 2014, 09:31 AM
The US does not have a vital or even valid stake in the national outcome of Ukraine.


Haven't you ever heard of the domino theory?
I seem to recall reading a just a little about it several years back. It doesn't apply to the present situation in Ukraine or states of the former Soviet Union.
Does it have anything to do with pizza?

I can't imagine Ukrainian pizza being very nice at all.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Copper
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John D'Oh
Oct 22 2014, 01:30 PM
I can't imagine Ukrainian pizza being very nice at all.

Pizzeria Mario sounds OK.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurants-g294474-c31-Kiev.html

One reviewer said:
Quote:
 
Ïèööà â ýòîé ïèööåðèè ìíå ïîíðàâèëàñü. Òåñòî òîëñòîå. Âèäîâ ïèööû ìíîæåñòâî: ñ ãðèáàìè, ñ îâîùàìè, ñ ìÿñîì è ò.ä. Îñîáåííî ïîíðàâèëîñü, ÷òî òåñòî â ïèööå íå òàêîå êàê â Èòàëèè, òîíåíüêîå, à íîðìàëüíîå, òîëñòîå, ïî íàøåìó, ïî óêðàèíñêè! Ñûòíî è âêóñíî.


It's hard to argue with that.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
John D'Oh
Oct 22 2014, 01:30 PM


I can't imagine Ukrainian pizza being very nice at all.
:lol2: I wonder if George is laughing as hard as I am. Now you are talking dirty in Polish, Ukrainian and Russian.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Copper
Oct 22 2014, 01:33 PM
John D'Oh
Oct 22 2014, 01:30 PM
I can't imagine Ukrainian pizza being very nice at all.

Pizzeria Mario sounds OK.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurants-g294474-c31-Kiev.html

One reviewer said:
Quote:
 
Ïèööà â ýòîé ïèööåðèè ìíå ïîíðàâèëàñü. Òåñòî òîëñòîå. Âèäîâ ïèööû ìíîæåñòâî: ñ ãðèáàìè, ñ îâîùàìè, ñ ìÿñîì è ò.ä. Îñîáåííî ïîíðàâèëîñü, ÷òî òåñòî â ïèööå íå òàêîå êàê â Èòàëèè, òîíåíüêîå, à íîðìàëüíîå, òîëñòîå, ïî íàøåìó, ïî óêðàèíñêè! Ñûòíî è âêóñíî.


It's hard to argue with that.
:lol2: :lol2: :lol2: Very.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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