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New Math
Topic Started: Oct 1 2014, 01:39 PM (714 Views)
George K
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Finally
http://www.redstate.com/2014/10/01/this-is-what-common-core-looks-like/

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Posted Image

The picture above is from my third grade daughter’s math book. This is the only page that explains that method for subtraction. There are, for the record, four ways to subtract that my third grader must learn.

“The only champions of common core I know are paid to like it and most of them have no kids.”
This is the only page explaining that method. This is the only example. The very next page goes to arrays. The page after that goes to multiplication. This is it.

The traditional method of subtracting, borrowing and carrying numbers, is derisively called the “Granny Method.” The new method makes no freaking sense to either my third grader or my wife.

We send our child to a Christian private school. We thought our child could escape this madness. But standardized tests, the SAT, and the ACT are all moving over to Common Core. So our child has to learn this insanity. But we cannot help her. The book offers only one example.

This is maddening and angering and frustrating. This is why so many parents are so upset. They cannot help their children. The math makes no sense and seems to offer no practical purpose other than it is new. The teachers privately concede the uselessness of it.
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

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George K
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Finally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIKGV2cTgqA


A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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jon-nyc
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Yeah, this is one way in which the cc standard are probably too advanced. Numerate people can easily pick up on a new method because the concepts are clear. But most people in school just learn the method they are taught and don't fundamentally understand why it works, so any change of method for them is like learning a foreign language.


Re this:

Quote:
 
This is maddening and angering and frustrating. This is why so many parents are so upset. They cannot help their children. The math makes no sense and seems to offer no practical purpose other than it is new. The teachers privately concede the uselessness of it.


Yeah, lots of parents think 'the kid just needs to learn how to subtract, teach him to subtract like we did do I can help'. And that's probably the most we can expect from most people. Having said that, its a little sad to have educational standards limited by what the parents can explain. If you disagree, go to the DMV and mingle with the crowd of random parents....
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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jon-nyc
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By the way, I already do stuff like this with the boy.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
unreal.
___.___
(_]===*
o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
jon-nyc
Oct 1 2014, 01:59 PM
Having said that, its a little sad to have educational standards limited by what the parents can explain. If you disagree, go to the DMV and mingle with the crowd of random parents....
Hell, all you need to do to realise how dumb regular people are is watch C-Span for 20 minutes, and take a look at who they vote for.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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George K
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Finally
I've read (and I have no independent verification of this) that one is now allowed to bring a calculator into your testing room for things like placement, SAT, etc. No need to learn method, let the computer do it for you. Can anyone confirm?

That said, I remember taking physics in college and being confused by the formulas, etc. I found it much easier to remember the theory behind the formula, and deriving the formulas for my tests. I actually understood the *why*.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Ok, but how do you add? I see what they are doing and it seems to me to be much more unwieldy than teaching the carrying/borrowing method we learned. It looks like they hired bad programmers to write the textbooks.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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jon-nyc
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Mikhailoh
Oct 1 2014, 02:53 PM
Ok, but how do you add? I see what they are doing and it seems to me to be much more unwieldy than teaching the carrying/borrowing method we learned.
Well, FWIW they're not promoting this as 'here's how you should subtract when you need to subtract'. It's a homework question - an exercise. It's asking 'do you understand whats going on here? Can you show us on these examples?'

(Another reason the parents are really showing their ass here by complaining)
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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George K
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Finally
jon-nyc
Oct 1 2014, 03:53 PM
FWIW they're not promoting this as 'here's how you should subtract when you need to subtract'. It's a homework question - an exercise. It's asking 'do you understand whats going on here? Can you show us on these examples?'
True.

However, how does CC teach subtraction?

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-common-core-subtraction-works-2014-5

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/03/07/about-that-common-core-math-problem-making-the-rounds-on-facebook/
Edited by George K, Oct 1 2014, 03:59 PM.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Is the problem with the common core that people don't like new methods, or is the main objection that people in Alabama shouldn't be taught maths the same way they are in Massachusetts?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Copper
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Shortstop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principles_of_learning#Primacy

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Primacy, the state of being first, often creates a strong, almost unshakable, impression. Things learned first create a strong impression in the mind that is difficult to erase. For the instructor, this means that what is taught must be right the first time. For the student, it means that learning must be right. “Unteaching” wrong first impressions is harder than teaching them right the first time. If, for example, a student learns a faulty technique, the instructor will have a difficult task correcting bad habits and “reteaching” correct ones.


The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Calling it subtraction to teach something entirely different is highly suspect in my eyes. I'm not opposed to teaching different methods, but I am opposed to teaching them as if all are equal when they clearly are not.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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jon-nyc
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George K
Oct 1 2014, 03:58 PM
However, how does CC teach subtraction?
This is from NY's docs, note it's grade 2 not grade 3:

Quote:
 
Use place value understanding and properties of operations to add and subtract.
5. Fluently add and subtract within 100 using strategies based on place value, properties of operations, and/or the relationship between addition and subtraction.
6. Add up to four two-digit numbers using strategies based on place value and properties of operations.
7. Add and subtract within 1000, using concrete models or drawings and strategies based on place value, properties of operations, and/or the relationship between addition and subtraction; relate the strategy to a written method. Understand that in adding or subtracting three-digit numbers, one adds or subtracts hundreds and hundreds, tens and tens, ones and ones; and sometimes it is necessary to compose or decompose tens or hundreds.
8. Mentally add 10 or 100 to a given number 100–900, and mentally subtract 10 or 100 from a given number 100– 900.
9. Explain why addition and subtraction strategies work, using place value and the properties of operations.1



The bolded part is really what's going on here, and clearly the part that most people didn't really pick up on when teachers just taught a single method by rote. The point of this standard appears to be 'understand that subtraction and addition are really about decomposing base 10', not 'here's the method you use to add or subtract'.

Now, as I indicated above, maybe this is too much to expect for most people.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Oct 1 2014, 04:43 PM
... The point of this standard appears to be 'understand that subtraction and addition are really about decomposing base 10', not 'here's the method you use to add or subtract'.

Now, as I indicated above, maybe this is too much to expect for most people.
It is.

We simply have to admit that for some students, their best hope to learn certain things effectively is by rote; and that for some teachers, their best hope to teach certain things effectively is also by rote.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Axtremus
Oct 1 2014, 04:57 PM
jon-nyc
Oct 1 2014, 04:43 PM
... The point of this standard appears to be 'understand that subtraction and addition are really about decomposing base 10', not 'here's the method you use to add or subtract'.

Now, as I indicated above, maybe this is too much to expect for most people.
It is.

We simply have to admit that there are students whose best hope to learn certain things effectively is by rote, and that there are teachers whose best hope to teach certain things effectively is also by rote.
I understand that, and can add and subtract in several bases. But for the vast majority of people and certainly for 2nd graders, , how is that knowledge of any practical use? If your path requires you to understand different base number systems you will learn that at the time.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
It is pretty alarming that any parent would find this method inscrutable.

Teaching a way of doing longhand arithmetic for the four basic operations is a good thing, but not really that relevant. Different forms of long-hand arithmetic map to the theory behind the operation (best presented geometrically, usually) better or worse. Our old long-hand methods can be safely revamped; they don't say too much about the theory behind the operation IMO. The complaining parents more or less bear this out by not being able to understand this "new" method - apparently the theory had always escaped them. (As Jon noted.)
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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jon-nyc
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@Mik: Well, it doesn't talk about different bases. I used the phrase 'base 10' as a simplification for 'ones place, tens place, hundreds place' which is very much in scope for early elementary ed.

Having said that, I do think the CC might be a bridge too far, it certainly is for the parents of the girl in the original story.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
If one can add and subtract proficiently I fail to see why the theory, such as it is, behind it is of significant value.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
jon-nyc
Oct 1 2014, 05:12 PM
@Mik: Well, it doesn't talk about different bases. I used the phrase 'base 10' as a simplification for 'ones place, tens place, hundreds place' which is very much in scope for early elementary ed.

Having said that, I do think the CC might be a bridge too far, it certainly is for the parents of the girl in the original story.
I understand that they are deconstructing the process, and that is not a bad thing in and of itself. I guess I would really like to see some evidence that this is more important than arts and music and history and all the other things that are falling on the altar of 'better'. Rather than what it takes to be competitive I'd rather see some focus on what it means to be a human being past the boundaries of crap psychology and sociology.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Mikhailoh
Oct 1 2014, 05:14 PM
If one can add and subtract proficiently I fail to see why the theory, such as it is, behind it is of significant value.
If you know how to use a computer program, then you can do everything the program lets you do. But nothing more. And you're screwed if it starts to get glitchy.

If you know how the program works, you can add to it, change it, and make it do whatever you want. And it'll never break on you.

To not know how something works is to not know it at all.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
My daughter now spends a good bit of her working day, teaching teachers how to understand this stuff.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Really, Aqua? Addition and subtraction? They hardly contain the plethora of possibilities that an application might have. Horrible analogy.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Understanding the theory behind rote processes allows you to use that theory to understand and perform that rote process, along with an infinite amount of other related processes. Not understanding the theory, but having memorized a rote process lets you perform that rote process, and little else. This is especially an issue with arithmetic since the rote processes are almost completely unused past school - adults use calculators for everything they can't do in their heads.

(More or less restating Aqua's post.)
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
You just supported my argument.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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