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"Bad Brains" NFL's Concussion Crisis; lawsuits, players signing off rights, more stats
Topic Started: Feb 2 2013, 12:17 PM (856 Views)
Amanda
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Sure, this isn't news to you, but putting all the facts together it still comes out ultra shocking to me. Among other things that stood out here, were: that high school players are even more vulnerable to these brain injuries, that the new supposed to be safe helmets, actually, make injuries worse, that over 3/4 of retired NFL players are bankrupt or in financial trouble within only two years, and the damning (persuasive) comparison to other industries' caught lying in defense of their lethal products, e.g., the cigarette industry and boxing's "pugilistic syndrome".

Every time I read about this football horror story, I relive my rage at my son's "I.E. P" committee who tried to force me to allow my son to play football (the coaches were after him). The learning enrichment specialists ridiculed me and dissed me to my son too, for my refusal - based FWIW on my knowledge of his prior head injuries and my suspicion that the head injuries did indeed have a cumulative effect.

I often wonder how much they recall my refusal and my reasoning - entirely prescient. Even though he understands now and "appreciates" it - kind of - I think irrationally, their criticism/ridicule of his mom caused permanent damage to our relationship. Good thing his "popular" (never make waves) father never bothered to attend any meetings. He would surely have vetted participation instantly. :hair: :veryangry:

Quote:
 
Bad Brains: The NFL and Its Concussion Crisis

By Jesse Goodman | More Articles | Save For Later
February 1, 2013 | Comments (14)

"Power concedes nothing without a demand; it never has and it never will."
-- Frederick Douglass

Football is a dangerous sport, with inherent health risks. When players suit up, put on helmets, and crash into each other, injuries are to be expected: broken bones, torn ligaments, sprains, contusions, etc. These are part and parcel with the sport. But what happens when science uncovers unexpected risks to players' physical and mental well-being? Shouldn't management be compelled to inform and protect its employees (players) of any potential long-term danger? These are the questions that the National Football League attempts to handle in what has become one of the most-talked about issues in professional sports over the last couple of years: concussions and the attendant brain trauma concussions cause.

Each year, during any given season, roughly 15% of football players suffer a mild traumatic brain injury. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the odds are even worse for teenage athletes: Nearly 2 million brain injuries are suffered by teenage players each year. The likelihood of suffering a concussion is three times higher for football players than the second most dangerous sport (women's soccer). Further, according to Grantland.com, high school football players who suffer three or more concussions are nearly 10 times more likely to exhibit multiple abnormal responses to head injury, including loss of consciousness and persistent amnesia.

Defining concussions and chronic traumatic encephalopathy
A concussion is defined as "An injury to a soft structure, especially the brain, produced by a violent blow and followed by a temporary or prolonged loss of function." The force of such a blow causes the brain to move so quickly through the cerebrospinal fluid that it slams into the skull itself. The impact can cause bruising to the brain, tearing of blood vessels, and nerve damage.

One doesn't necessarily have to lose consciousness to have a concussion. Those who have experienced repeated concussions are susceptible to chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), "a degenerative disease that affects the brain and believed to be caused by repeated head trauma resulting in large accumulations of tau proteins, killing cells in regions responsible for mood, emotions, and executive functioning," according to The Concussion Blog. Symptoms of CTE include cognitive impairment, dementia, depression, memory loss, concentration or attention issues, disorientation, confusion, tremors, speech problems, and loss of one's senses. CTE is quite similar to -- and is often misdiagnosed as -- Alzheimer's disease in that those who suffer from it often experience memory loss, mood disorders, and depression.

Concussions haven't always been called by that name. Either out of ignorance or obfuscation, when a player would suffer head trauma, the league -- announcers, coaches, league officials -- used coded language to mitigate the extent of the injury. For example, a player who had been concussed would be deemed "shaken up" on a play. The team might release a statement that a player had been "dinged up" or "buzzed."

The terms used to describe brain trauma are still somewhat nebulous and misleading. Some concussions in the league are diagnosed as "minor." In reality, there are no minor concussions: Brain trauma is brain trauma. In the 1990s, players with concussions would often receive smelling salts on the sidelines and were sent directly back onto the field to continue playing. It was not unheard-of for players to suffer multiple concussions in the same game. Why jeopardize the career, and the physical well-being, of a player? The answer involves copious amounts of money.

Football is big business
Let's get this straight: The NFL is a business first and foremost. And it's a big business. Huge. Last year, the NFL generated $9 billion in revenue. It holds nearly $1 billion in assets and will pay its commissioner, Roger Goodell, nearly $20 million in 2019. Of the big three American sports (i.e., baseball, football, and basketball), it ranks first.


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We've seen this before
This type of subterfuge is nothing new. For years, big tobacco denied any causal correlative between cigarette smoking and various forms of cancer/ill health. Once the science caught up, the evidence became undeniable, and tobacco companies were forced to admit culpability.

In 2006, a U.S. District Court found tobacco companies guilty of deceiving the public about the health risks of smoking. The judge on that trial wrote that the companies, including British American Tobacco, Altria/Philip Morris, and RJ Reynolds, among others, acted "with a single-minded focus on their financial success and without regard for the human tragedy or social costs that success extracted."

We don't yet know the full scope and depth of those football players who suffer from the condition, but as research and science advance, CTE will likely be uncovered as a pervasive problem among football players of all shapes and sizes, and of all ages. According to research conducted by the Boston University Center for the Study of Traumatic Encephalopathy, the brain tissue of 18 of 19 deceased former NFL players have tested positive for CTE.

The real catalyst for CTE as an emerging high-profile issue can be attributed, in large part, to the investigation behind a number of former NFL players committing suicide. NFL alumni such as Dave Duerson, Andre Waters, Terry Long, and most recently, Junior Seau (whose family is now suing the NFL), have committed suicide. They and 30 other former NFL players have been diagnosed, post-mortem, with CTE.

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An unavoidable danger
The evidence regarding the link between football and brain trauma is undeniable, and the NFL has recently refined and altered its rules in an attempt to decrease the number of concussions its players suffer each year. This is an impossible task: the violent collisions during football plays are an integral and inextricable part of the game as it was originally constructed. It is unrealistic to attempt to legislate out the fulcrum of the sport. Players are being penalized and fined for hits that were considered routine and legal only a few seasons ago. While the NFL rules committee appears to focus on highlight-reel hits, it is the sub-concussive blows, the ones offensive and defensive linemen experience on every single play, that are just as dangerous as the more visible ones other players suffer.

If the NFL truly cares about the health of its players, as it purports to, then the game cannot continue on in its current incarnation. It must be drastically altered or abolished altogether. Obviously, the NFL is not going to shut itself down, so it continues with the charade.

The problem is, many former players and their lawsuits, should they be successful, would cost the league hundreds of millions of dollars. In turn, this will cost the league's 32 insurers money as well, forcing them to raise premiums to compensate for the increased risk of lawsuits.

The NFL has deep pockets and might be able to sustain these financial losses, but as The New York Times has reported, football at other levels will suffer. Youth leagues, high school programs, and college programs would be forced, as a result of rising premiums, to raise fees or implement other severe measures such as asking players to sign away their right to sue schools/organizations. It's not unreasonable to foresee pee-wee football leagues, high schools, and even college programs shutting down altogether simply to avoid the potential financial disaster that could result from running football operations. Consequently, the NFL's very talent pool -- youths and teenagers plying their craft and aiming for the pros -- would simply evaporate. Just last month, a study published by UCLA researchers in the American Journal of Geriatric Psychiatry shows that CTE can be detected in living patients. This discovery is tremendously important in that we will now be able to diagnose exactly how many players, on all levels, are suffering from CTE.

The future is uncertain
Once we process these possibilities, we begin to see the full scope of the problem the NFL faces: Football in this country could conceivably not exist in 10 to 15 years. If that seems like an absurd supposition, consider that 40% of the stocks in from 1983's Fortune 500 list no longer exist.

The NFL's death will likely start with these liability lawsuits. Even the manufacturers of NFL equipment are not immune to the CTE fallout. According to Forbes, Riddell, the official helmet manufacturer of the NFL, now faces allegations from roughly 2,500 plaintiffs seeking damages for falsely marketing its helmets as having the ability to prevent or reduce concussions by substantial percentages (claiming roughly a 31% reduction in concussions).

If Riddell, once a public company but now owned by private equity firm Fenway Partners, is found to have willfully misrepresented the functionality of its product, it could suffer dire financial consequences. There is no helmet, no equipment, that can prevent concussions in football. Helmets were originally conceived so that players would stop breaking their necks and fracturing their skulls during football. They can't prevent or even markedly reduce concussions because the injury is internal -- the brain jars from the ferocity of the hit. Ironically, today's helmets likely contribute to concussions rather than reduce them, because players feel comfortable launching themselves at other players at higher speeds and with even more forcible impact.

As the NFL comes under fire from various angles -- lawsuits, public outcry, scientific research, and media scrutiny -- the league's backbone, its players (former and current), could ultimately be the tipping point in the demise of the NFL. Players are now expressly concerned over their own futures with regard to their physical and mental health. They are speaking out, and people are listening. Former Kansas City Chiefs running back Thomas Jones has decided to donate his brain to the Sports Legacy Institute to be studied for evidence of CTE. Jones has no idea how many concussions he has sustained in his 12-year professional career, but he fears for his mental well-being years down the line.

Former San Diego Chargers and New England Patriots safety Rodney Harrison has also been vocal in his concern over concussion-related trauma. Harrison says he is fearful over what could happen to him as a result of the estimated 20 concussions he has sustained over his career. Currently, Harrison says he now experiences symptoms of loneliness, isolation and anxiety. "I'm scared to death. I have four kids, I have a beautiful wife and I'm scared to death what might happen to me 10 or 15 years from now," Harrison told Bob Costas in a segment that aired this week. He claims that during his first five or six years in the NFL, he'd never even heard the word "concussion" mentioned by teams.


http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/02/01/bad-brains-the-nfl-and-its-concussion-crisis.aspx
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Horace
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Ex players are going to milk this for all it's worth, and I suspect they'll get some substantial money out of it. Current players, even knowing these well-documented risks, aren't going to quit. And when they become ex-players, they'll milk this for all it's worth, too.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Copper
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Someday the boxing will make a big comeback and have some extra money.

And then surprise! Somebody will figure out that boxing causes damage to the body.

And that is true of just about every other sport. But most sports don't have the big money bullseye painted on them.

Maybe I should start chasing New Balance because my knees aren't what they used to be.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Amanda
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Feb 2 2013, 01:29 PM
Ex players are going to milk this for all it's worth, and I suspect they'll get some substantial money out of it. Current players, even knowing these well-documented risks, aren't going to quit. And when they become ex-players, they'll milk this for all it's worth, too.
If I were an NFL player, I'd still rather have a whole, undamaged brain than a ton of money. Who can price a healthy brain? Maybe it will help their families after they're dead. :sad:

What I really wonder, if what lies ahead for the NFL and FUTURE players. Looks like there won't be any more pro football without legal waivers. (And what about college and High School football where there aren't the same deep pockets to keep the sport going?)

If they succeed in forcing players to sign off on the right to sue, then we'll be able to tell what kind of decisions they make under truly informed consent. Reminds me of pre-surgical consent forms - which can still be attacked for mal-practice.

Having trouble understanding how fans can get the same kick out of watching players go down, "get a buzz" , etc. after impact - now that these dangers are recognized. Or is that precisely the fun of it - knowing our modern gladiators are in REAL danger?

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Horace
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I never got anything out of the "violence" aspect of the sport, and big hits make me cringe more than anything else. Always did, even before all this stuff about concussions came to light. It just didn't look healthy. Even from a purely selfish fan's perspective, the violent aspect is a downer because the players you invest in and look forward to watching play, often end up getting hurt and not playing. There's no fun in that.

But it's definitely true that many fans (and most defensive players) love the big hit. I'm just not one of them.

There's a lot more to football than that though. A lot more that makes it fun to watch.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Amanda
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To reference what I said about NFL players' financial problems (from the linked article).

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Within two years of retirement, 78% of former NFL players have gone bankrupt or "are under financial stress.


Abt that brain damage - seriously. Who would be willing to subject themselves to these risks? Not risks, certainties. Without prior brain damage, who would agree to it? What's more, unlike boxers, the players are unionized and the unions are complaining.

And the helmets and other "protective gear" - those companies are also being sued. Even the slightest pretense to affording real protection, makes them vulnerable to lawsuits.

Quote:
 
Even the manufacturers of NFL equipment are not immune to the CTE fallout. According to Forbes, Riddell, the official helmet manufacturer of the NFL, now faces allegations from roughly 2,500 plaintiffs seeking damages for falsely marketing its helmets as having the ability to prevent or reduce concussions by substantial percentages (claiming roughly a 31% reduction in concussions).

If Riddell, once a public company but now owned by private equity firm Fenway Partners, is found to have willfully misrepresented the functionality of its product, it could suffer dire financial consequences. There is no helmet, no equipment, that can prevent concussions in football. Helmets were originally conceived so that players would stop breaking their necks and fracturing their skulls during football. They can't prevent or even markedly reduce concussions because the injury is internal -- the brain jars from the ferocity of the hit. Ironically, today's helmets likely contribute to concussions rather than reduce them, because players feel comfortable launching themselves at other players at higher speeds and with even more forcible impact.


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Horace
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Amanda
Feb 2 2013, 02:36 PM
To reference what I said about NFL players' financial problems (from the linked article).

Quote:
 
Within two years of retirement, 78% of former NFL players have gone bankrupt or "are under financial stress.


Abt that brain damage - seriously. Who would be willing to subject themselves to these risks? Not risks, certainties. Without prior brain damage, who would agree to it?
Lots of guys would. It's not some fringe attitude.

Quote:
 
What's more, unlike boxers, the players are unionized and the unions are complaining.


It's not the players union that will be the main driver of the lawsuits. It's the ex players. The current players aren't going anywhere. The number of guys who quit because of the risks will be minuscule.

One player I'm aware of, named Jahvid Best, is being forced into an early retirement due to repeated head trauma, but that's because the doctors won't let him play. If it was his choice, he'd be out there.

The effects the NFL will feel from this won't be from guys choosing not to play. It'll be from the financial effects of law suits, and potentially from high schools or colleges shutting down their football programs, if that happens.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Copper
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Amanda
Feb 2 2013, 02:36 PM

If Riddell, once a public company but now owned by private equity firm Fenway Partners, is found to have willfully misrepresented the functionality of its product, it could suffer dire financial consequences.

If this kind of thing catches on with the general public it could really get crazy.

I played hockey in high school. We wore leather helmets than maybe protected against some cuts. At that time few pro hockey players wore helmets.

The first football helmets we wore were also mostly made of leather, nothing like the high tech stuff in use today.

I wonder what the liability is for the guys who made those helmets. I think I feel a headache coming on.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Amanda
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Feb 2 2013, 02:42 PM
Amanda
Feb 2 2013, 02:36 PM
To reference what I said about NFL players' financial problems (from the linked article).

Quote:
 
Within two years of retirement, 78% of former NFL players have gone bankrupt or "are under financial stress.


Abt that brain damage - seriously. Who would be willing to subject themselves to these risks? Not risks, certainties. Without prior brain damage, who would agree to it?
Lots of guys would. It's not some fringe attitude.


It's not the players union that will be the main driver of the lawsuits. It's the ex players. The current players aren't going anywhere. The number of guys who quit because of the risks will be minuscule.

One player I'm aware of, named Jahvid Best, is being forced into an early retirement due to repeated head trauma, but that's because the doctors won't let him play. If it was his choice, he'd be out there.
Must be what I said about prior brain damage. The risk of serious brain damage is too great for any sane risk:benefit analysis to support it.

I guess it's the business of youth and living in the present - no sense of the future.
Hey, how come Zen Buddhism for all its wisdom, advocates living in the here and now? One son has gotten immense benefits out of stays in a monastery - but how come there's this discrepancy in how to arrive at meaningful decision-making? How else can we learn from experience, other than studying the past and projecting to the future?

And what about delayed gratification? :wacko:
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Horace
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Amanda
Feb 2 2013, 02:50 PM
Must be what I said about prior brain damage. The risk of serious brain damage is too great for any sane risk:benefit analysis to support it.
Well, it's not unheard of for ex-players to live long and mentally healthy lives after their careers are over. I'd consider the decision to play to be very sane when compared against the prospect of a middle class existence employing one's communications degree in the 9 to 5er workforce.

Quote:
 
I guess it's the business of youth and living in the present - no sense of the future.


Not many of us ever have the opportunity to play a sport in front of 10s of thousands of fans cheering for us. I'd have made long-term sacrifices (or risked such sacrifices at least) for that.

Quote:
 

Hey, how come Zen Buddhism for all its wisdom, advocates living in the here and now? One son has gotten immense benefits out of stays in a monastery - but how come there's this discrepancy in how to arrive at meaningful decision-making? How else can we learn from experience, other than studying the past and projecting to the future?

And what about delayed gratification? :wacko:


That's interesting, what was the monastery stay like? For how long? What were the days comprised of?

I think that would be a neat thing to do. It was an interesting part of the fictitious John Andrew's back-story. I'd like to hear a real one now. :)
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Amanda
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Feb 2 2013, 03:02 PM


That's interesting, what was the monastery stay like? For how long? What were the days comprised of?

I think that would be a neat thing to do. It was an interesting part of the fictitious John Andrew's back-story. I'd like to hear a real one now. :)
The founder is Thich Nhat Hanh - to be read about here, for starters (but not only!).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thich_Nhat_Hanh

He has founded three monasteries in the US, after the first in France.

One son has attended two of Thich Nhat Hanh’s US monasteries - one in San Diego (Deer Park)and one in upper New York State (Blue Cliff ) for weeks at a time. They were incredible experiences, especially because of beauty of the environments and the character and soul of the monks and nuns there - all of whom are devoted to helping and educating their visitors. It is their vocation, really, and the charge is entirely nominal. It meant the world to both my son and his girlfriend (they did not attend at the same time). She described it movingly as the only time she had ever experienced total peace.

I myself visited the Blue Cliff monastery with both of them, though only for a single “Day of Mindfulness”.
Thich Nhat Hanh is absolutely remarkable. BTW all the scripts on the sites, were written by him. He has written a great many books, in the many languages he himself has mastered.

The best way to get the picture is to review the websites. It’s also much worth reading about Thich Nhat Hanh himself. I consider him to be the greatest modern living saint. He worked to mediate at the Viet Nam peace talks - having the honor to be banned by both North and South, because he advocated reconciliation.

He is also noted for having introduced the notion of active work rather than “just” meditation. On these accounts he is a somewhat controversial figure in Buddhism.

At all the monasteries, they grow their own organic food and the diet is entirely vegetarian. The food in San Diego is superlative, since the head cook is a former Cordon Bleu chef. Note that many of the nuns and monks are formerly active in other religious orders. It’s really worth reading about him and the monasteries - also the individual monastics who are described at their sites.

Note that his first monastery is in France, the Plum Village site.
http://www.plumvillage.org/
http://bluecliffmonastery.org/
http://deerparkmonastery.org/about-us/thich-nhat-hanh

PS I am not at all convinced that John Andrew is not a real person.
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Horace
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Thanks Amanda. There seems to be lots of interaction with the others at the monastery, as opposed to lots of solitude. Is that an accurate assessment? In my ignorance, I thought monasteries were more about solitude.

Quote:
 
PS I am not at all convinced that John Andrew is not a real person.


:shrug: It seemed pretty compelling that at least there was nobody by that name in CA who died at that time, and that there was nobody by any name in CA who died in that manner at that time.

I've been wrong before though.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Amanda
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Buddhism at least, Thich Nhat Hanh's version, is not about solitary meditation. At least, not ONLY (he meditates alone quite a lot.). Figure BTW that he's approaching 90 and still active in practice! He's scarcely changed physically in decades. AMazing man. I figure he can't easily meditate with others all the time - he's so venerated. That and also, he has to conserve his energy. He can't be always "on".

I know the monastery "John Andrew" wrote about WAS altogether different, but that was Catholic, as I recall. And even then, I believe, there are all kinds of different monastecism in Catholicism too. Somewhere or other (I hope not on my broken hard drive), I have the account of his stay there, I wrote him asking about it. He said he hadn't thought of describing it, but went on to reply. Only later, he excerpted part of that account for others.

About Thich Nhat Hanh ("Thay" - teacher), innovated the "Interbeing" Philosophy of Buddhism - basically, that as long as monks live in this world, they are obligated to work for the greater good of their beings - that, and towards social goals (they're very big on ecology, energy conservation, etc).

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Nhat Hanh's approach has been to combine a variety of traditional Zen teachings with insights from other Mahayana Buddhist traditions, methods from Theravada Buddhism, and ideas from Western psychology—to offer a modern light on meditation practice. Hanh's presentation of the Prajñāpāramitā in terms of "interbeing" has doctrinal antecedents in the Huayan school of thought,[27] which "is often said to provide a philosophical foundation" for Zen.[28]

About "John Andrew", I figured that there was no special reason to assume that was his full or even exact name. In fact, I thought his last name, even according to his online presentation, was supposed to be "Newcomb". But why shouldn't anyone legitimately prefer to use a variant of his name - especially someone like him who was a professional clinician (of the "life coach" variety)?

FWIW on a sub-forum we participated in for a while, he sent in a photo of himself (in his office). That was certainly a real person; I saw the pic. Why bother send in a photo if he didn't want to? Others refused - just refrained, not refused (I was one).
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dolmansaxlil
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HOLY CARP!!!
Players will not stop, even if they know the consequences. The same problem is true in hockey. High school kids will lie to their schools about getting a concussion outside of school so they can continue to skate, and their parents will back them up and lie with them. Even after several well publicized incidents in the NHL where major players had to give up the sport and campaign about the importance of the topic, most players (and parents) are unwilling to have their kid sit out for months until they get the all clear.
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Horace
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dolmansaxlil
Feb 2 2013, 06:48 PM
Players will not stop, even if they know the consequences. The same problem is true in hockey. High school kids will lie to their schools about getting a concussion outside of school so they can continue to skate, and their parents will back them up and lie with them. Even after several well publicized incidents in the NHL where major players had to give up the sport and campaign about the importance of the topic, most players (and parents) are unwilling to have their kid sit out for months until they get the all clear.
From what I have seen and read, "enforcers" in the NHL, the guys who make a living getting punched in the head while they try to do the same to others, have an abnormally high rate of suicide in their post-playing days.

The fighting thing in hockey is really weird.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Horace
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Amanda
Feb 2 2013, 06:36 PM
Quote:
 
Nhat Hanh's approach has been to combine a variety of traditional Zen teachings with insights from other Mahayana Buddhist traditions, methods from Theravada Buddhism, and ideas from Western psychology—to offer a modern light on meditation practice. Hanh's presentation of the Prajñāpāramitā in terms of "interbeing" has doctrinal antecedents in the Huayan school of thought,[27] which "is often said to provide a philosophical foundation" for Zen.[28]

About "John Andrew", I figured that there was no special reason to assume that was his full or even exact name. In fact, I thought his last name, even according to his online presentation, was supposed to be "Newcomb". But why shouldn't anyone legitimately prefer to use a variant of his name - especially someone like him who was a professional clinician (of the "life coach" variety)?

FWIW on a sub-forum we participated in for a while, he sent in a photo of himself (in his office). That was certainly a real person; I saw the pic. Why bother send in a photo if he didn't want to? Others refused - just refrained, not refused (I was one).
The "Newcombe" (as I recall it) thing came after he died - in the thread started on WTF by his "son".

Add a last name to an (understandable) alias and you imply the full name is real. If it's not, in this case, then the deception was carried out not only by the man, but also extended by his son, after his death.

Not impossible but IMO improbable, compared to the alternatives.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Amanda
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Well, if they and/or their parents have to sign detailed release of indemnity agreements listing all the risks, they may not be so fast to jump on the bandwagon.



[size=5]
We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.
[/size]

"Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005
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Amanda
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Horace
Feb 2 2013, 07:00 PM
The "Newcombe" (as I recall it) thing came after he died - in the thread started on WTF by his "son".

Add a last name to an (understandable) alias and you imply the full name is real. If it's not, in this case, then the deception was carried out not only by the man, but also extended by his son, after his death.

Not impossible but IMO improbable, compared to the alternatives.
Improbable to you perhaps, speaking as someone who didn't have much to do with him (online). At least, that's my guess (?).

I did, and I don't believe he was a phony.
I have had hours long "conversations" late at night with him, and he rang quite true to me.
I also remember how he first came online, to buy a piano for his church. As I recall, he did end up purchasing one and from a dealer on the site.

I suspect, though, that he had off-line contact with "Lazy Pianist" but don't see why they wouldn't elect to communicate that way without volunteering the information. They were both practically crucified on the PW board. It was godawful. :no:
[size=5]
We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.
[/size]

"Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Folks, you can wax on about how tough rugby is, or maybe talk about the toughness of Australian rules football. Fact is, they are tough sports, played by tough men.

Yet, I can think of few sports with as much controlled violence as American football, especially at the higher levels.

There are some arguments being made now, that kids start the game too early. As somebody who broke an arm playing the game as a twelve year-old, I would agree. I think the minimum starting age for tackle football should be the freshman year of high school.

But I dearly loved the game. I loved the big hit - the decleater, the slobber-knocker, the lights-out pop you can hear in the parking lot. And I could bring the wood as a high schooler. I've knocked guys rolling from the field onto the track, I've busted helmets, knocked three guys out stone cold and put one guy in the meat-wagon. Not cheap shots, but good, clean hits.

I've been on the other side of those, too. Spent a couple of days in the hospital with a hummer of a concussion. Tore some ligaments in my left knee, when I was rolled up from behind. Torn my hands so bad you could see two of knuckle joints (that wasn't so bad, you could flick the blood in the defensive lineman's eyes :whome: ).

I wish I would have had the talent to play at the next level. Didn't have it...too slow, not quite tall enough.

Yes, there are bad things associated with the game. Coaches tell you when you start, it's not a matter of if you get hurt, it's a matter of when and how bad.

For all the bad, though, there's also lots of good...football is very much a team sport. It teaches you how to submerge self for greater good. It teaches you how everybody working in sync, can accomplish more than you thought possible. It teaches that you can think and play through pain. It teaches that half-hearted efforts result in little but self-endangerment. It teaches you how to win and it teaches you how to lose. It teaches you how to endure.

No, it's not a perfect game. It is a worthwhile game

But we knew that going in, didn't we?...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Horace
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Amanda
Feb 2 2013, 07:06 PM
Horace
Feb 2 2013, 07:00 PM
The "Newcombe" (as I recall it) thing came after he died - in the thread started on WTF by his "son".

Add a last name to an (understandable) alias and you imply the full name is real. If it's not, in this case, then the deception was carried out not only by the man, but also extended by his son, after his death.

Not impossible but IMO improbable, compared to the alternatives.
Improbable to you perhaps, speaking as someone who didn't have much to do with him (online). At least, that's my guess (?).

I did, and I don't believe he was a phony.
I have had hours long "conversations" late at night with him, and he rang quite true to me.
I also remember how he first came online, to buy a piano for his church. As I recall, he did end up purchasing one and from a dealer on the site.

I suspect, though, that he had off-line contact with "Lazy Pianist" but don't see why they wouldn't elect to communicate that way without volunteering the information. They were both practically crucified on the PW board. It was godawful. :no:
Sorry but there's some deception for someone who can't be tracked down - even after public admission of the alleged real name, along with the date and manner of death - after their death.

Explain as you will that deception, but the deception is almost certainly there.

A deception that doesn't very well jibe with who John Andrew Newcombe claimed to be.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Horace
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Jolly
Feb 2 2013, 07:12 PM
Folks, you can wax on about how tough rugby is, or maybe talk about the toughness of Australian rules football. Fact is, they are tough sports, played by tough men.

Yet, I can think of few sports with as much controlled violence as American football, especially at the higher levels.

There are some arguments being made now, that kids start the game too early. As somebody who broke an arm playing the game as a twelve year-old, I would agree. I think the minimum starting age for tackle football should be the freshman year of high school.

But I dearly loved the game. I loved the big hit - the decleater, the slobber-knocker, the lights-out pop you can hear in the parking lot. And I could bring the wood as a high schooler. I've knocked guys rolling from the field onto the track, I've busted helmets, knocked three guys out stone cold and put one guy in the meat-wagon. Not cheap shots, but good, clean hits.

I've been on the other side of those, too. Spent a couple of days in the hospital with a hummer of a concussion. Tore some ligaments in my left knee, when I was rolled up from behind. Torn my hands so bad you could see two of knuckle joints (that wasn't so bad, you could flick the blood in the defensive lineman's eyes :whome: ).

I wish I would have had the talent to play at the next level. Didn't have it...too slow, not quite tall enough.

Yes, there are bad things associated with the game. Coaches tell you when you start, it's not a matter of if you get hurt, it's a matter of when and how bad.

For all the bad, though, there's also lots of good...football is very much a team sport. It teaches you how to submerge self for greater good. It teaches you how everybody working in sync, can accomplish more than you thought possible. It teaches that you can think and play through pain. It teaches that half-hearted efforts result in little but self-endangerment. It teaches you how to win and it teaches you how to lose. It teaches you how to endure.

No, it's not a perfect game. It is a worthwhile game

But we knew that going in, didn't we?...
Even though I don't get any visceral thrill from watching big hits, I at least respect that violence is an organic part of football.

Hockey with its gratuitous fights, completely ungoverned by the rules of the game and completely irrelevant to the game's outcome, and yet still allowed by the officials, is really weird.

You fight like that in any other sport and you're thrown out of the game, period.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Copper
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Horace
Feb 2 2013, 07:19 PM

Hockey with its gratuitous fights, completely ungoverned by the rules of the game and completely irrelevant to the game's outcome, and yet still allowed by the officials, is really weird.

It's part of the game. If you grow up with it it isn't weird at all.

If you grow up with brothers it's the most natural thing in the world.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Horace
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Copper
Feb 2 2013, 07:33 PM
Horace
Feb 2 2013, 07:19 PM

Hockey with its gratuitous fights, completely ungoverned by the rules of the game and completely irrelevant to the game's outcome, and yet still allowed by the officials, is really weird.

It's part of the game. If you grow up with it it isn't weird at all.

If you grow up with brothers it's the most natural thing in the world.
I grew up with a brother, we never fought at all.

Judge things by their peers. Hockey is the only game I'm aware of where officials don't stop fights. That's "weird" and deserves some consideration.

I think it's just a fan thing. The powers that be know that fighting, while superfluous to the outcome of the game, or at least to what the outcome would be if only the athletic hockey skills mattered, is compelling to the fanbase.

It's a dying sport anyway. If owners and players can't agree on a way to play that makes economic sense to both, it makes sense to neither.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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dolmansaxlil
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Horace
Feb 2 2013, 08:04 PM


It's a dying sport anyway. If owners and players can't agree on a way to play that makes economic sense to both, it makes sense to neither.
I disagree, at least in Canada. The NHL and the ridiculous contract negotiations won't kill the game (and probably not the NHL, but the NHL isn't the whole game). Fans packed the OHL (ontario Hockey League, and training ground for the NHL) games during the strike (as they regularly do). Many OHL teams play to consistent sell outs and tickets are hard to come by. And the hockey an OHL game is fantastic. Better than the NHL in regular season play most nights. Hockey is at no risk of going away in Canada, just like baseball isn't going away in the US. It's a culture thing.
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Amanda
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Jolly:
Quote:
 
No, it's not a perfect game. It is a worthwhile game

But we knew that going in, didn't we?...

"Not perfect" is unspeakably inadequate to describe a sport in which a significant percent of players suffer major brain damage as a result of repetitive concussion syndrome.

Moreover, one which endangers High School and younger players even more than adult players (previously cited with reference). And the helmets have been proven to make their situation not less but more dangerous (also cited).

"NOT PERFECT"!? Let's see what the doctors and the courts say from here on out, Jolly. Remember this exchange. I say it's going to be as crystal clear as cigarettes and lung disease, in terms of danger.
And hidden mostly for the same reasons.
How much money is in it.

The "glory" and indulgence of violenct impulses, however much they count, are secondary - only tolerated because of the lies and propaganda (paid for by the $$).

[size=5]
We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.
[/size]

"Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005
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