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| Walking the Walk; Kudos to St. Boniface/San Fran, and other churches that do the same | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 1 2013, 10:24 AM (785 Views) | |
| Dewey | Feb 2 2013, 05:34 AM Post #26 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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To repeat: the church is providing stopgap accommodation for people in the off hours when the shelters close and put everyone out (for cleaning, and often to keep them within zoning standards regarding whether they're short term or long term housing facilities). The church provides these sleeping, showering, restroom, feeding and other service on weekdays only, and from 6a to 1p. The wedding scenario really isn't a valid concern. Even if it were, the church could simply say that they willnot schedule any weddings during those times. My church#2 has a policy that no weddings will be sceduled in December, due to all the other church activities going on in the building that month. Same thing. In fact, until the local YWCA built its homeless shelter for families, we were part of an interfaith consortium that housed and fed about thirty people for a week at a time, about every six weeks in the scheduled rotation. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| John D'Oh | Feb 2 2013, 05:45 AM Post #27 |
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MAMIL
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I've attended more than a couple of services that would have been lightened up considerably by the unexpected appearance of groups of homeless people. Of course, the Church of England has always had very low standards regarding the type of people it allows in. As long as women wear a stupid hat they're good, and let's be honest homeless people have some pretty exciting headgear. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| VPG | Feb 2 2013, 06:21 AM Post #28 |
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Pisa-Carp
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thumb: Having said that, they have to wear hats in England, most of the women are bald. |
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I'M NOT YELLING.........I'M ITALIAN...........THAT'S HOW WE TALK! "People say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look." Ronald Reagan, Inaugural, 1971 | |
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| Axtremus | Feb 2 2013, 07:23 AM Post #29 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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How does the Church of England's standard compare to Biblical Jesus' standard concerning the types of people they let in? How do they compare to, say, Scientology's standard in this regard? |
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| OperaTenor | Feb 2 2013, 09:44 AM Post #30 |
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Pisa-Carp
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+1 |
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| Axtremus | Feb 2 2013, 11:16 AM Post #31 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Jon-nyc asked "Where Was John D'Oh" and John D'Oh immediately popped back in. It's a MIRACLE! |
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| Jolly | Feb 2 2013, 11:28 AM Post #32 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Show me where Jesus let bums crash in the Temple. I think Jesus had waaay too much respect for His Father's house to do something like that. That's not to say He would not use the resources of the Church to help those less fortunate or that he did not have the ultimate Love and concern for man. This is not a case of allowing whosoever seeketh to find a place to worship. This is a case of allowing bums to crash in the Sanctuary. Seems to me, if you want to minister to people who have no place to lay their head, there are more effective ways than this... |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| jon-nyc | Feb 2 2013, 12:00 PM Post #33 |
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Cheers
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Reading the responses in this thread one is tempted to view Christianity as a something of a Rorschach test. |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| Horace | Feb 2 2013, 12:15 PM Post #34 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Such cynicism. It's not about one's own interpretation of the randomly shaped ink blob. It's about what the randomly shaped ink blob actually means. |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
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| Dewey | Feb 2 2013, 12:52 PM Post #35 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Momentarily setting aside your erroneous, and quite unChristlike dismissal of all homeless people as bums... You're undoubtedly aware that the Temple was not merely a place of worship. It was understood to be the very dwelling place of God, the focal point of God's existence within human existence. You're also undoubtedly aware that Christian theology understands that since Christ - that is, since God became human, in the flesh, participating in our existence in the most direct and intimate manner possible, the idea of a physical building serving that role is now obsolete - that in fact, Christ's body - Christ himself - is the true Temple, the holy of holies, where God truly dwells. And you're further undoubtedly aware that it is the core, fundamental tenet of the Christian faith, that we have been reconciled, redeemed, saved, precisely through Christ's taking on all of the worst of us, into his own being. Taking on all the most rotten in all of us, far dirtier and far smellier than the surface dirt and smell of those homeless people, and allowing it to dwell within him. Allowing all of us bums to crash in his Temple. And to not only allow us to crash there, but to actually accept all the consequences of that rottenness and dirt and smell, physically, in and upon his own body. In other words, our faith is based precisely on the fact that Jesus allows bums to crash in the Temple. And if he did not, and does not, then there is no hope of you, or me, or any other bums, ever being considered worthy and righteous in God's sight. Jesus had so much love for us that he allowed his Father's Temple - his own body - to be dirtied and sullied - and beaten, and stripped, and crucified and killed, for our benefit. He did so because he truly understood the reality of a God who so loved the world, and everyone in it - bums and all - that he was willing to die to reconcile us with him. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Rainman | Feb 2 2013, 01:11 PM Post #36 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Jesus would say, "let them stay." Then, he would pass out quell for the lice and cans of raid to wedding guests when necessary, for those tiny little "God's Creatures" that enjoy living on some of the homeless, and find new homes in the carpet. |
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| ivorythumper | Feb 2 2013, 01:33 PM Post #37 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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It's entirely appropriate that this be dealt with at the parish level, under the care and judgment of the pastor who is responsible for balancing the various needs of the community. No strong judgments for me one way or the other, other than that all really are welcomed in the House of God and this makes a positive statement to those who are pretty much rejected and ignored by the rest of society, and who are vulnerable to the dangers of living rough. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Jolly | Feb 2 2013, 07:25 PM Post #38 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Yep, aware of all of that. And nope, not allowing bums to sleep in the sanctuary, unless there is no other alternative. Lastly, for all of you looking down your nose at me and tut-tutting in the corner, when was the last time you welcomed strangers into your church? Fed them? Clothed them? Gave them a place to sleep? Brought their children toys? Bought gas to put in their vehicles? By your fruits, ye shall be known. Not by your rhetoric. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Dewey | Feb 2 2013, 07:51 PM Post #39 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I hope that you aren't directing these questions at me. The answers would not serve your argument well. Church property is a tool to be used for the gospel. Nothing less, nothing more. Placing too high a value on the tool turns it into an idol. A very common one in our society, but an idol nonetheless. God gives us resources and expects us to use them to care for "the least of these," His sheep. If God loves his creatures - including those you so glibly dismiss as "bums" - so much that he would become human and allow himself to be killed for their sake, I cannot think that he would be so worked up over protecting mere real estate. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Horace | Feb 2 2013, 08:08 PM Post #40 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Taxpayers can be known by this, in direct proportion to the amount of taxes they pay. It may not be in the spirit of giving, but it is in the practice. It's interesting that, in most highly publicized crises such as the Louisiana flood, they had to turn back manual labor and even food and other essentials. They just wanted money. That's the most efficient way to help. But the best way to convince people that you've helped is to show them a picture of you wielding a shovel or something. That's why politicians do that. |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
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| Jolly | Feb 2 2013, 08:27 PM Post #41 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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I called them bums, because that is what they are. While God wants us to minister to all, maybe I'm too stupid or maybe I don't have enough grace, that I can divide the bums from the truly needy. I prefer to help those first (since I can't help everybody), who bear little to no responsibility for the condition they find themselves in. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Dewey | Feb 2 2013, 08:49 PM Post #42 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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It is indeed a very strange version of Christianity that you ascribe to, Jolly. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Luke's Dad | Feb 2 2013, 09:24 PM Post #43 |
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Emperor Pengin
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Jolly, in many ways those bums are truly the ones in most need of his grace. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| OperaTenor | Feb 2 2013, 11:16 PM Post #44 |
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Pisa-Carp
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+1 |
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| Jolly | Feb 3 2013, 05:05 AM Post #45 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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But it is a very practical one. My entire career, I've worked with poor people. Every working day. It doesn't take you very long and you can start to mostly separate the sheep from the goats. There are those people who are poor, who are struggling, who are homeless...and are not content with their situation. Maybe bad financial decisions have left them destitute. Maybe a bad relationship has left them out on the street and nowhere to go. Maybe they have a chemical dependency and they know they need help to get clean. Maybe they have medical issues and badly need care. Then there are the bums, the trash. Yep, I said trash. It's often said God didn't make any trash, and while I agree, some folks sure used their Free Will to make themselves into what they are. A lot of these folks seem quite content with their life. You try to help and they bite your hand. You try to show them a better way and you are ignored. You try to change their condition and they crawl right back in the muck as fast as they possibly can. Now, I've only got so much energy, so many hours in a day, only so much money. I can spend those resources taking care of somebody, where it actually might make a small difference for the better in somebody's life, or I can chunk those resources down a rat-hole. God is infinite, I am not. I try to make the best impact I can, with what I have. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| chatten | Feb 3 2013, 07:09 AM Post #46 |
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Junior Carp
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So they spend all night sleeping then in the morning get kicked out and so go to a church to sleep the rest of the day away and presumably go back to the shelters when they open? I hope the church has everything valuable nailed down cause there will always be at least 'one' who believes in self help If they really want to help then how about investing some of the money they rip off from the congregation and buy a place and open their own homeless shelters, like most stories you only hear one side but i wonder how many visitors to the church have been accosted for money? food? clothing? or been flashed etc? of course its possible none of that would happen but would they talk about it if it had? I dont think i would be taking any little kids into a church full of homeless people who are by their own admission usually drunks and using drugs I also realise that a lot of these people are here because of circumstances beyond their control but a lot are also there by choice yet expect to be handed everything |
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| Mikhailoh | Feb 3 2013, 07:39 AM Post #47 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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All politics is local. What you can and should do in your particular parish or congregation has a lot to do with the facilities you have and who is in your congregation. Any nun in healthcare can tell you the hard cold truth - no money, no mission. It is not simply up to the priest or minister to make these determinations, but also to the people who support and attend that particular church. Their wishes deserve to be respected. Make them unhappy and those resources dry up, at which point one can accomplish nothing. The main offices will not be pleased either. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Pastor Fuzz | Feb 3 2013, 08:37 AM Post #48 |
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Advanced Member
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Blessed is the bum that sits in the pew of the Lord. |
| "Catholic guilt is amazing stuff. You could use it to clean an oven.” The Daily Mash 25 February 2013 | |
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| ivorythumper | Feb 3 2013, 12:21 PM Post #49 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Dewey | Feb 3 2013, 04:32 PM Post #50 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Good, now we're making some progress. Before this, you were dismissing all of the homeless people receiving services from the church as bums. Now you've moved off that position. That's a good start.
Very true. Also irrelevant. You mentioned that your views were are very practical. Indeed, they are. The problem is that the very essence of the call of Christ is to go beyond the practical. Practical is defined by the world; the world can, and does, do practical perfectly well all by itself. Practical is the logic and wisdom of the world. Christ calls us to something different. Practical has actually caused many of the problems that Christ calls us to step into to help fix. Christ calls us to treat others with grace; the same attitude of grace that God has chosen to extend to us. By God's measure, we are all every bit as unworthy of what we're given as is the worst and most ungrateful person you can imagine. So in the scenario at hand, being able to discern who "deserves" our assistance is really largely irrelevant. We have not been given the job of judging other people's worthiness to receive our compassion; God reserves that duty. We have been charged with extending them compassion and hospitality *regardless* of whether we think they deserve it or not. Regardless of whether they thank us for it, regardless of whether they appreciate it, regardless of whether they squander it, regardless of whether they bite our hand, or don't listen to our advice about how they can improve their life. Our charge to extend compassion and hospitality to others did not come with the qualifier that we only had to extend it to people who listened to us or made us feel warm inside for having done so. We're simply charged with doing it. God will handle the rest. Apparently, the church in the story had excess capacity in its sanctuary in the weekday mornings to provide short-term shelter services in ways that the existing shelter system in the city was unable to accommodate. Their heat was going to be on, their lights were going to be on, whether there was anyone in those pews or not. There is no question here of having to triage finite resources, prioritizing them to the more or less deserving. The question was whether the church could exploit the situation that they had, in order to provide help to some of those in our society who need it the most. And again, Christ calls us to help the most needy, and he tells us to do so without imposing any sort of expectations from them in return, or approving of their lifestyle. There are homeless people who can be helped - and if you read the article, you saw that this program has succeeded in just that way for some. Other times, though, we can't achieve someone getting out of the hellish situation they're living in. Doesn't matter. We are still called to offer the same hospitality and compassion. Whether we like them, or the situation, or not. It isn't our call. Sometimes, the biggest and best thing we can do to help someone isn't getting them to listen to our self-help pitch that they can't or won't, listen to on this day. Sometimes, the biggest and best thing we can do to help them is to give them a meal, and a place to sleep and shower, and maybe get a little medical care, so they can survive for another day, when maybe they will be able to do something about the bigger problem. But even if they never do, it still doesn't matter. Christ calls us to help others. Even the ones the world calls trash. Even the ones the world calls bums. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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12:37 AM Jul 11