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New record!; Most violations of trust ever.
Topic Started: Feb 1 2013, 05:04 AM (965 Views)
jon-nyc
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Cheers
Read that in combination with his previous posts about the restrictions his first employer had.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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chatten
Junior Carp
Another question should be 'Do employers have the RIGHT to force their own views on their workers'? personally i dont think so as long as the employee's do their job and do it professionally it shouldnt matter if they are 'fat' and not everyone is fat because they eat too much or dont exercise you have many who have health related conditions and to not hire then is a form of discrimination

Same goes for a broken marriage just because your partner leaves you means your suddenly NO good at your job again discrimination

What an employee does or doesnt do outside his or her working hours should not be the business of an employer unless hes paying their wage when they are NOT at the job then he can control it
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
To put this in perspective - and you have to live here to get it - this is Aurora...

Before the theater shooting, Aurora was known around here as Colorado's "hood." This is pretty not-surprising from a teacher who's working with the student population she is.

That being said - this is totally inappropriate and I'm surprised it's even being debated.
A teacher is in a position of trust.
It would be different if your plumber posted pictures of himself nude, or the average desk jockey - but this is a person in a position of trust.
They face different statutes with almost everything because of that, and flaunting sexually provocative behavior and referencing same with a student is crossing the line.
It may be every HS male's dream, but it's still obviously out of bounds.

The marijuana piece shouldn't be of concern, as it's legal now.
Granted, that doesn't mean jack in the court room (was just talking to a DA friend about this), but still - the state law says marijuana's ok, so that shouldn't matter.

PS: THC is not a narcotic.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Copper
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chatten
Feb 1 2013, 10:41 AM

What an employee does or doesnt do outside his or her working hours should not be the business of an employer unless hes paying their wage when they are NOT at the job then he can control it

It's not a matter of control, it's a matter of establishing an agreement between the employer and the employee.

Either party can set whatever conditions they want and the other can agree or disagree.

Height, weight, education, marital status are all legal characteristics that an employer has every right to use to discriminate.

And the employee can use any reason at all not work for an employer. The employee can even use reasons that would be illegal for the employer.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Copper
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jon-nyc
Feb 1 2013, 10:39 AM
Read that in combination with his previous posts about the restrictions his first employer had.

Right.

Read it as much as you want and you still won't find child slavery in there.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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jon-nyc
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So Copper, is it ok if your employer requires that an employee join the union?

I mean, if he can require a weight limit and a marital status, why not?
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Usually I am very much in favor of freedom of contract between adults, but the power distribution between employers and employees is typically so asymmetrical such that I favor an exception here. I don't like minimum wages, or equal opportunity laws, or any of these other things that mess with the options of an entrepeneur, but I think it is reasonable to restrict contracts between employees and employers to those things that have direct relevance to the job.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
Can you guys please stop interrupting my teacher fantasy with your discussions of right to work? kthnxbai!
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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jon-nyc
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:lol:
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Copper
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jon-nyc
Feb 1 2013, 11:11 AM
So Copper, is it ok if your employer requires that an employee join the union?

I mean, if he can require a weight limit and a marital status, why not?

Sure, why not?
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Copper
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Klaus
Feb 1 2013, 11:36 AM

power distribution between employers and employees is typically so asymmetrical

restrict contracts between employees and employers to those things that have direct relevance to the job.

Except when it isn't.

http://web.sba.gov/faqs/faqIndexAll.cfm?areaid=24

Quote:
 

• Represent 99.7 percent of all employer firms.
• Employ half of all private sector employees.
• Pay 44 percent of total U.S. private payroll.
• Generated 65 percent of net new jobs over the past 17 years.


And height, weight, education and marital status could certainly be relevant.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Copper
Feb 1 2013, 12:21 PM
The asymmetry is not smaller when the company has 50, or 200 employees.

Quote:
 
And height, weight, education and marital status could certainly be relevant.

Of course education is relevant for a job, nobody ever said anything about that.

Height and weight might be relevant if it is physical work, or if you are a model. For an office job they are not.

Marital status has no relevance for an employer and is nobody's business.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Copper
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Klaus
Feb 1 2013, 01:01 PM

The asymmetry is not smaller when the company has 50, or 200 employees.

Marital status has no relevance for an employer and is nobody's business.

Of course asymmetry is smaller when the company has 50, or 200 employees.

And there was a time when community standards typically included definite ideas about marital status.

This may or may not still be typical where you are, but so what?

If the employer or employee want to use this as a discriminator, why not?

If the employee wants to limit his employee pool that is his business decision.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
but I think it is reasonable to restrict contracts between employees and employers to those things that have direct relevance to the job.


I agree with you, but you have to understand that in the case of this teacher, it *does* have affect their job.
Here, when you become a teacher, you sign a conduct contract that establishes you being in a position of trust. You're a leader, not just an educator, and as such it is clearly spelled out what types of behavior are consistent with that. You opt-in to this sort of standard when you sign the contract and become a teacher.
It is clear that part of your job, is how you live your life. You're even allowed to do what you want, but privately. It's one thing to be a teacher and go to a fetish ball or something similar - but it's quite another to publicly publish images via twitter in a very immature way - it clearly goes against what is expected of you in terms of job performance.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
KlavierBauer
Feb 1 2013, 01:14 PM
but it's quite another to publicly publish images via twitter in a very immature way - it clearly goes against what is expected of you in terms of job performance.
I would say that such an expectation is itself unreasonable.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I would say that such an expectation is itself unreasonable.

That would be a good reason for the teacher to not agree to it then...
It's hardly a reason to defend the teacher after she's agreed to the standard and broken it.

To your point though - what is unreasonable about requiring that people meant to be an example to our young refrain from childish and immature public behavior?
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
To your point though - what is unreasonable about requiring that people meant to be an example to our young refrain from childish and immature public behavior?
I never expect children to look up to any one as example for "mature public behavior" except their parents/guardians.

No single profession, and no practitioner of any one profession, should be held responsible to be children's role model for morality or "mature public behavior."

Those are the responsibilities of the parents/guardians.

So the premise that somehow people of any particular profession is some how "meant" to be an example to our young is simply wrong.
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Luke's Dad
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Ax, you forgot a major part of your post. The words "in my opinion". You keep stating opinions, then extrapolating as if they are fact. The fact is that most school boards, districts, and voters disagree with your opinion and have established policy and procedural rulebooks for teachers detailing acceptable public behaviors and actions. This teacher broke those rules. She's free to do handstands in her panties in the privacy of her own home all she likes. The minute she publicly tweets them? She's broken the code that she agreed to in taking her position.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Copper
Feb 1 2013, 01:08 PM
And there was a time when community standards typically included definite ideas about marital status.

This may or may not still be typical where you are, but so what?

If the employer or employee want to use this as a discriminator, why not?

If the employee wants to limit his employee pool that is his business decision.
"Community standards"? You sound like a 1960s hippie. If you don't like the idea of a heterogeneous society you should maybe move to North Korea, where everyone is equal (and some are more equal).

Actually, I don't mind if an employer takes whatever factor he wants into account when he decides for an employee. However, once there is a contract between employer and employee, the contract should be limited to issues directly relevant to the job, otherwise the potential for misuse would be too large.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Copper
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Axtremus
Feb 1 2013, 02:04 PM

I never expect children to look up to any one as example for "mature public behavior" except their parents/guardians.

No single profession, and no practitioner of any one profession, should be held responsible to be children's role model for morality or "mature public behavior."

Those are the responsibilities of the parents/guardians.

So the premise that somehow people of any particular profession is some how "meant" to be an example to our young is simply wrong.

This attitude works great if you are raising your children in a dark room in the basement.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Copper
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Klaus
Feb 1 2013, 02:12 PM
"Community standards"? You sound like a 1960s hippie. If you don't like the idea of a heterogeneous society you should maybe move to North Korea, where everyone is equal (and some are more equal).

Actually, I don't mind if an employer takes whatever factor he wants into account when he decides for an employee. However, once there is a contract between employer and employee, the contract should be limited to issues directly relevant to the job, otherwise the potential for misuse would be too large.

A heterogeneous society is defined by "Community standards".

And from time to time these standards evolve.

This is why, except maybe in North Korea, contracts like the one you describe don't make much sense.

I understand that any employer here in Virginia can fire any employee at any time for no reason at all.

The employee can leave at any time for any reason.

In that arrangement where is the possible room for misuse?
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Ax, I agree with you 100% that these things are the responsibility of the parents.
Unfortunately, every single parent who ships their children off to school every day while both parents work have agreed to share this responsibility (as is their right to do) with a stranger at the public school. Their children go there for physical stimulation, mental stimulation, conduct control, behavior modification, two meals - you see my point, it's hardly fair to say that you *only* expect teachers to teach.
They do a whole lot more.
If a child punches yours in the face, you expect the school to take some non-factual-teaching role, and actively pursue punitive action correct?

To that end, we all have agreed that our teachers take care of our kids when we can't, rather than just teach them their ABCs. As such, and as LsD said, they've agreed to certain conduct.
They break the rule, they pay the price - what's there to debate?
Change the rules if you think they're unreasonable, but don't bust the school's balls for enforcing the rule the teacher agree to explicitly.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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jon-nyc
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What KB said.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
What jon-nyc said.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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jon-nyc
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Fvck Klaus, he doesn't know what he's talking about.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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