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| Says a lot abt "human shields" in Israel bombing strikes now; except that (now it's not funny) the victims aren't aware of their risk | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 21 2012, 03:50 PM (586 Views) | |
| Amanda | Nov 21 2012, 03:50 PM Post #1 |
Senior Carp
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OTOH visually, the placement explains it well. Recently viewing photographs of dead children in Gaza (they've been widely disseminated), I was struck by two things - at poles from each other: a) the tragedy of the loss of every child - every one of them, a world destroyed, as reflected by their parents' heartbroken faces. b) as always, though, how the Palestinian strategists are exploiting this sorrow - for instance, showcasing these photographs for effect; numerous instances of fraudulent photojournalism are surfacing. In some cases, supposedly dead bodies have been found alive and well in later images. Bodies have been used and reused for the purposes of negative propaganda. In one appalling recent instance, the body of a particularly lovely young girl, was moved around a good deal. After dying three weeks ago in Syria, her well-preserved corpse was photographed again in Gaza - perhaps elsewhere.  The motives are clear. These sad images are being used for effect. PR strategists aim at exaggerating the extent of casualties, the appeal of the victims (cf. later thread about "Pallywood"), and the alleged intentionality of Israel's attacks. Surely, we already knew that there are always two sides to every news item - the tragic and the exploitative. Just as ordinary computer users become inured to scenes of violence (unsure whether or not they were staged), so viewers in the Islamic world, are becoming disgusted - wondering how much their heart-strings are being tugged by inauthentic images. They are especially offended when the effect depends on disrespectful treatment of corpses, as with the young girl. This deeply contradicts important Muslim precepts governing how dead bodies are to be handled. Edited by Amanda, Nov 21 2012, 04:12 PM.
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[size=5] We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.[/size] "Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005 | |
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| Jolly | Nov 21 2012, 05:58 PM Post #2 |
Geaux Tigers!
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If a nation is going to make war, make war. Doesn't matter if there are human shields or children's body parts strewn across a rubble-filled street. Define your enemy, kill him, his get and anything standing near him. Win, and you get to write the history books. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| kathyk | Nov 21 2012, 06:40 PM Post #3 |
Pisa-Carp
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A lot of speculation on your part, Amanda. I'd be interested to see some verification of your assertions. But you know what else? If I had lost a child to violence, I'd exploit it all I could to prevent similar losses. Edited by kathyk, Nov 21 2012, 06:43 PM.
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| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| Renauda | Nov 21 2012, 06:48 PM Post #4 |
HOLY CARP!!!
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I wrote something to that effect a couple of weeks back. I wonder if you'll get taken to task over it as did I. |
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| Mikhailoh | Nov 21 2012, 06:50 PM Post #5 |
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/an-open-letter-to-khalil-from-gaza/ |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Mikhailoh | Nov 21 2012, 06:51 PM Post #6 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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http://www.idfblog.com/2012/11/20/hamas-spokesman-urges-palestinian-civilians-to-ignore-idf-warnings/ |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Larry | Nov 21 2012, 07:06 PM Post #7 |
Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Pull your head out of your ass and you'll find that everything Amanda said is a FACT. Your second sentence is an example of just how far you'll bend over backwards to justify your ignorant views. "I'd exploit it all I could to prevent similar losses"....... It's hard to even know where to begin straightening out such stupidity as this, but let's give it a go anyway. Let's keep it to the relatively late history so it won't tax your brain too much. 1. HAMAS has been lobbing missiles into Israel for years. 2. Israel has asked them to stop. 3. HAMAS won't stop. 4. ISRAEL DOESN'T WANT THEIR CHILDREN TO BE KILLED SO THEY ARE FIGHTING BACK, TRYING TO ELIMINATE THOSE WHO KEEP SHOOTING MISSILES AT THEM 5. THE MISSILES ARE LOCATED INSIDE RESIDENTIAL HOUSES IN "palestine". You are just too stupid for words. Go back and WATCH THE VIDEOS I posted and educate yourself instead of continuing to make us suffer through your ignorance. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| kathyk | Nov 21 2012, 07:11 PM Post #8 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Good Larry. I know how credible your assertions are. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| Larry | Nov 21 2012, 07:12 PM Post #9 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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If you'd take the time to watch the videos you ignorant twit, you'd know those aren't my "assertions", they are FACTS. GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| kathyk | Nov 21 2012, 07:23 PM Post #10 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Believe me, I'm quite familiar with the propaganda that has inundated the internet from both sides. That's why I steer clear of obviously biased websites. That's why my preferred sources are Jewish and/or Israeli. So, Larry, if you can find me some videos from Arab websites making your point, I will most definitely take a look. And since the topic is human shields, let's be clear that the Palestinians are not the only ones who have employed this tactic. B'tselem's report on IDF's use of Palestinians as human shields. Edited by kathyk, Nov 21 2012, 07:29 PM.
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| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| Larry | Nov 21 2012, 07:25 PM Post #11 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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You wrote this, Kathy:
It's hard to even know how to reason with someone that utterly ignorant of the facts. 1. You have been given mountains of proof to back this up - the "palestinians" are not being "occupied" by ANYONE. They are not being "Subjugated to oppression" by Israel, they are being oppressed by Hamas, and by ALL THE ARAB COUNTRIES AROUND THEM WHO REFUSE TO ALLOW THEM TO ENTER THEIR COUNTRY. 2. The "violence visited on Gaza by Israel" is NOT disproportional at all, Kathy. It is the violence visited on Israel by Hamas, and by the "palestinians" who are sympathetic to their cause, who are guilty of that. 3. Israel did NOT start this round. HAMAS STARTED THIS ROUND. Sh!t woman, even a 3rd grader can follow the news well enough to understand that. 4. The next flare up will come the same way this one did - Hamas will begin lobbing missiles into Israel, Israel will try their best to talk them into not doing it, months and months will go by with hundreds upon hundreds of Hamas rockets and missiles landing on Israel, liberal idiots like you will be too busy doing whatever you bobble heads do when you have your head up your ass, and then after a few hundred missiles have landed in Israel, Israel will fire a missile back, and idiots like you will once again begin shouting about how Israel "fired the first shot", Israel is to blame, yada yada. You're too stupid to be discussing this issue. Please stop. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Larry | Nov 21 2012, 07:26 PM Post #12 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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I ALREADY DID, YOU PIN HEADED TWIT!! DAMN! |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| kathyk | Nov 21 2012, 07:36 PM Post #13 |
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Pisa-Carp
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No, Larry, you did not. Don't you read English? I said that every single link I posted at WTF in support of my views was from a Jewish or an Israeli website. I just looked at the videos you posted. Not one is from an Arab source. As I said, there's no shortage of propaganda on both sides of the issue. |
| Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/ | |
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| Larry | Nov 21 2012, 07:42 PM Post #14 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Kathy, one of the things that happens in a free society is that kooks like you get to talk. What you're doing is cherry picking information from every leftwing nutjob bunch of Israelis who are just as ideologically constipated as you are. The truth is, your information is coming from leftwing Israeli sites put up by morons who don't understand reality any more than you do, and the videos I put up are (with the exception of one) all historical in nature, and unbiased politically. You are simply incorrect, Kathy. The "palestinians" are not suffering because of Israel. Your view of what is happening there is the exact opposite of the truth, and you're too invincibly ignorant to open your mind up and learn anything. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Amanda | Nov 21 2012, 07:59 PM Post #15 |
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Senior Carp
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I just lost a very painstakingly collected reference for every comment I made, which were however, in no way speculative. On the contrary all were documented - except for my counting the number of times the same dead siblings photos were reproduced - they were in CHAS' site and I did the collating myself (at considerable cost in time and emotional pain). Here's the best I can do to repro the links from before though without my commentary. Again, I fail to see what you are calling "speculation." Yes, of course Israel has used human shields occasionally especially in demolition. The widespread use of human shields in masking missile silos and other sensitive targets is unique to the Palestinians and Islamic strategists. After all, only Israel is able and/or interested in using "surgical strikes" to avoid civilian /collateral damage (I agree it is an offensive military euphemism). They do this for both humanitarian reasons and for PR. Thus, their opponents attempt to make this hard for her. If Israel were to adopt similar tactics it would be counterproductive. Why? Because their foes, DELIBERATELY AIM AT THESE AS STRATEGIC TARGETS. And perhaps that in itself distinguished between the two. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=555967701097002&set=a.403201713040269.113157.403187596375014&type=1&ref=nf  http://obamacartoon.blogspot.com/2012/11/bbc-reporter-tweets-image-of-syrian.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2236209/BBC-reporter-tweets-photo-injured-Gaza-girl-actually-child-Syria.html   |
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[size=5] We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.[/size] "Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005 | |
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| Dewey | Nov 21 2012, 08:00 PM Post #16 |
HOLY CARP!!!
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And, apparently, quite an interesting rewrite of the Bible. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Jolly | Nov 22 2012, 01:04 AM Post #17 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Don't think so. The Jews, in more than one instance, were absolutely merciless. With God's Blessing. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Dewey | Nov 22 2012, 05:00 AM Post #18 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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No, Christ is the complete, full, sufficient revelation to us of God, and what God wants us to be and do. And it puzzles me that you can adopt and support the type of total, unmitigated war that you've described here and numerous times in the past - which runs contrary to virtually every single act and teaching of Christ - while simultaneously opposing something like the far less lethal or destructive proposition of female bishops, for example, on the grounds that "it isn't Biblical." |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Jolly | Nov 22 2012, 05:23 AM Post #19 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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There is more than one passage in the bible delineating who should lead the Church. I think that issue is pretty cut and dried. As for waging war, I know of no specific place where God outlines just how war should be waged. I do note, however, that in many instances where a war or aggressive action occurs, God will show little or no Mercy. If one believes there is such thing as a just war, I see no hindrance in making that war as short in duration as possible. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| jon-nyc | Nov 22 2012, 06:13 AM Post #20 |
Cheers
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To your earlier point, it was the Jews who wrote in the blessing. |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| Dewey | Nov 22 2012, 06:28 AM Post #21 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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If one believes in just war, as I do, one also has to accept the implications of that - in other words, that there are also unjust manners of waging warfare, and the Christian faith has a pretty well-developed understanding of what attributes must exist in order for warfare to be considered just. A quick summary of these attributes, compliments of wikipedia: 1. Just cause. The reason for going to war needs to be just and cannot therefore be solely for recapturing things taken or punishing people who have done wrong; innocent life must be in imminent danger and intervention must be to protect life. 2. Comparative justice. While there may be rights and wrongs on all sides of a conflict, to overcome the presumption against the use of force, the injustice suffered by one party must significantly outweigh that suffered by the other. 3. Competent authority. Only duly constituted public authorities may wage war. A just war must be initiated by a political authority within a political system that allows distinctions of justice. 4. Right intention. Force may be used only in a truly just cause and solely for that purpose—correcting a suffered wrong is considered a right intention, while material gain or maintaining economies is not. 5. Probability of success. Arms may not be used in a futile cause or in a case where disproportionate measures are required to achieve success. 6. Last resort. Force may be used only after all peaceful and viable alternatives have been seriously tried and exhausted or are clearly not practical. 7. Macro-Proportionality. The anticipated benefits of waging a war must be proportionate to its expected evils or harms. And, once war has been initiated: 8. Distinction. Just war conduct should be governed by the principle of distinction. The acts of war should be directed towards enemy combatants, and not towards non-combatants caught in circumstances they did not create. The prohibited acts include bombing civilian residential areas that include no military targets and committing acts of terrorism or reprisal against civilians. Moreover, combatants are not permitted to target with violence enemy combatants who have surrendered or who have been captured or who are injured and not presenting an immediate lethal threat. 9. Proportionality. Just war conduct should be governed by the principle of proportionality. An attack cannot be launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage. 10. Military necessity. Just war conduct should be governed by the principle of minimum force. An attack or action must be intended to help in the military defeat of the enemy, it must be an attack on a military objective, and the harm caused to civilians or civilian property must be proportional and not excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated. 11. Fair treatment of prisoners of war. Enemy soldiers who surrendered or who are captured no longer pose a threat. It is therefore wrong to torture them or otherwise mistreat them. 12. No means of warfare which are "malum in se." Soldiers may not use weapons or other methods of warfare which are considered inherently evil of themselves, such as mass rape, forcing soldiers to fight against their own side or using weapons whose effects cannot be controlled (e.g. nuclear weapons). It's pretty easy to see that, completely independent of the actual specifics of the warfare being considered, the type of warfare that you've laid out is inconsistent with the idea of just war on a number of counts. Being able to point to instances where the Israelites engaged in warfare within the scriptures isn't ultimately helpful to your position either, since a.) Many, of course, would consider these passages less than historical, and intended to convey a larger message; and that the attribution of God's instructing them to be merciless is not fact, but a contextual way of indicating God's blessing upon not what's being described, but what has come to exist, which the story is attempting to describe the origins of. People who might argue this would also point out that the totality of even the Old Testament record points toward a God who is actually far more merciful than would ever actually bless such mercilessness. You would flatly dismiss this possibility, of course, but many would not. Still, let's point out several other facts that should be applicable to your own place in the faith; b. If God advocated total, merciless warfare in ancient times, he doesn't seem to have done so in more recent times. Most notably, and as already pointed out, there isn't the slightest hint of the same kind of merciless treatment, in war or otherwise, in the words of Jesus Christ. Christ is not just the head of the church, but he is also the very personification of God - the fullest, most sufficient revelation to us of what we are to know about God, and how God wills us to live. And in that revelation, every single teaching of Christ exhibits and teaches the exact polar opposite of the kind of practices that you've recommended. c. This is clearly not a misunderstanding of Christ and his teaching, since it is also the universal teaching of the remainder of the New Testament authors of scripture, writing both before and after the writing of the gospels. d. In every instance where the scriptures allegedly recording God's instructing merciless warfare, it is not the people themselves who choose to do so, but God himself who instructs them to do so, and in those instances, he is instructing specially and specifically contrary to his more general prohibitions against such actions. Therefore, even if God did indeed instruct the Israelites to behave that way, in the absence of the same incontrovertible word directly from God to do so, we have no authority to engage in such actions. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Nov 22 2012, 10:25 AM Post #22 |
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Bull-Carp
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Another damn good reason to keep clergy out of uninvited or unsolicited meddling into general politics, diplomacy and military affairs . |
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| VPG | Nov 22 2012, 11:15 AM Post #23 |
Pisa-Carp
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Amen! |
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I'M NOT YELLING.........I'M ITALIAN...........THAT'S HOW WE TALK! "People say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look." Ronald Reagan, Inaugural, 1971 | |
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| Dewey | Nov 22 2012, 04:48 PM Post #24 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Yes, I suppose when a person wants to act monstrously to other human beings, they probably wouldn't want to solicit the opinion of clergy. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| John D'Oh | Nov 22 2012, 04:54 PM Post #25 |
MAMIL
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I'd far rather have clergy give their opinions on religion than have to put up with politicians giving us their opinions on religious matters. Those bastards never shut up about *anything*. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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8:36 AM Jul 13