Expert on mental illness reveals her own struggle

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Expert on mental illness reveals her own struggle
Tweet Topic Started: Nov 17 2012, 11:07 PM (634 Views)
Amanda	Nov 17 2012, 11:07 PM Post #1
Senior Carp Posts: 2,409 Group: Members Member #100 Joined: April 20, 2005	Don't know why the NYT patrons have started emailing this again, but it reminded me of one of the most influential figures in recent US Psychotherapy movements - and THE most courageous. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html Edited by Amanda, Nov 17 2012, 11:30 PM.
	[size=5] We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.[/size] "Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005


Amanda	Nov 17 2012, 11:10 PM Post #2
Senior Carp Posts: 2,409 Group: Members Member #100 Joined: April 20, 2005	. Edited by Amanda, Nov 17 2012, 11:19 PM.
	[size=5] We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.[/size] "Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005


Jolly	Nov 18 2012, 04:41 AM Post #3
Geaux Tigers! Posts: 47,617 Group: Members Member #30 Joined: April 19, 2005	I don't know if that's news. Most psych guys are nuttier than fruitcakes...
	*The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.*- George Soros


kathyk	Nov 18 2012, 06:48 AM Post #4
Pisa-Carp Posts: 7,334 Group: Members Member #115 Joined: April 22, 2005	I was just going to say the same. Psychiatrists, in particular, are often completely wacky. When I did my music therapy internship at Synai Hospital in Detroit one of the staff psychiatrists was known to be a schizophrenic. I guess he did okay as long as he was on his meds; brilliant mind, though. Edited by kathyk, Nov 18 2012, 06:49 AM.
	Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/


Mikhailoh	Nov 18 2012, 07:25 AM Post #5
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead Posts: 92,842 Group: Members Member #181 Joined: April 26, 2005	I think sometimes if they are not when they start they may be by the time they graduate. Humans were not built to undergo too much introspection. Trying to reconcile our natural baser desires with our highest ideals is bound to fail at some juncture. In my experience there is some truth that a lot of folks who are drawn to the people fixing studies - counseling, psychology, psychiatry - would like to fix themselves.
	Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball


brenda	Nov 18 2012, 07:27 AM Post #6
.............. Posts: 37,054 Group: Members Member #721 Joined: August 28, 2008	Mikhailoh Nov 18 2012, 07:25 AM I think sometims if they are not when they start they may be by the time they graduate. Humans were not built to undergo too much introspection. Trying to reconcile our natural baser desires with our highest ideals is bound to fail at some juncture. Well now, that's just begging for you to provide some personal examples from your own life.
	�Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.� ~A.A. Milne


Mikhailoh	Nov 18 2012, 07:29 AM Post #7
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead Posts: 92,842 Group: Members Member #181 Joined: April 26, 2005	Yeah, maybe not.
	Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball


Larry	Nov 18 2012, 07:29 AM Post #8
Mmmmmmm, pie! Posts: 47,996 Group: Members Member #113 Joined: April 22, 2005	I can.... My first wife is a psychologist....
	Of the Pokatwat Tribe


Mikhailoh	Nov 18 2012, 07:32 AM Post #9
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead Posts: 92,842 Group: Members Member #181 Joined: April 26, 2005	And yet she married you...
	Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball


Larry	Nov 18 2012, 07:38 AM Post #10
Mmmmmmm, pie! Posts: 47,996 Group: Members Member #113 Joined: April 22, 2005	She wasn't a psychologist when she married me. I got to watch her slowly lose her mind....
	Of the Pokatwat Tribe


Larry	Nov 18 2012, 07:40 AM Post #11
Mmmmmmm, pie! Posts: 47,996 Group: Members Member #113 Joined: April 22, 2005	Hey Kathy - is it ALL psychiatrists and psychologists that you think are "whacky", or just the Jewish ones?
	Of the Pokatwat Tribe


kathyk	Nov 18 2012, 12:13 PM Post #12
Pisa-Carp Posts: 7,334 Group: Members Member #115 Joined: April 22, 2005	I'm not sure what being Jewish has to do with schizophrenia. Edited by kathyk, Nov 18 2012, 12:14 PM.
	Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/


Larry	Nov 18 2012, 01:42 PM Post #13
Mmmmmmm, pie! Posts: 47,996 Group: Members Member #113 Joined: April 22, 2005	Yeah, right.....
	Of the Pokatwat Tribe


Amanda	Nov 18 2012, 05:14 PM Post #14
Senior Carp Posts: 2,409 Group: Members Member #100 Joined: April 20, 2005	Mikhailoh Nov 18 2012, 07:25 AM I think sometimes if they are not when they start they may be by the time they graduate. Humans were not built to undergo too much introspection. Trying to reconcile our natural baser desires with our highest ideals is bound to fail at some juncture. In my experience there is some truth that a lot of folks who are drawn to the people fixing studies - counseling, psychology, psychiatry - would like to fix themselves. It has nothing to do with introspection, or "going crazy" AFTER entering one of the mental health helping professions (what a lot of hooey!). For better or worse, there is very little in adulthood in ANY field, which could have that effect on healthy people. Taking care to beware of stereotyping, I'm afraid it's true that therapy as a profession, does tend to attract extremes of mental health needs. Among potential therapists, more than the population average, are interested in and capable of providing help. This is ALL to the good, since book learning alone isn't enough to qualify a therapist, especially, to treat children and adolescents. What's more, a therapist who doesn't care - deeply - would be a poor fit for this role. OTOH, there are still a significant number with the "wrong" motives for choosing this field. Either they themselves have more problems, or else, it's the only sure way they have of placing themselves at the desk instead of on the "couch". (Metaphoric only in meaning now, since scarcely any traditional psychoanalysts remain, least of all, ones relying on the psychoanalytic couch.) Every profession has its own pre-selection criteria. Here, past acquaintance with the field and practitioners, can be a sign of unresolved needs. However, it can also indicate greater empathy, insight and sensitivity.
	[size=5] We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.[/size] "Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005


Mikhailoh	Nov 18 2012, 05:30 PM Post #15
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead Posts: 92,842 Group: Members Member #181 Joined: April 26, 2005	I disagree that an excess of introspection cannot harm one as I have seen that it can. Now, if you wish to argue that the tendency to engage in it so indicates some underlying issue or pathology that led the individual to that action I would not disagree but that knowledge was not available to me.
	Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball


Amanda	Nov 18 2012, 05:39 PM Post #16
Senior Carp Posts: 2,409 Group: Members Member #100 Joined: April 20, 2005	I'm disappointed, though, that cliches and jokes are the first and so far, only, responses to this extraordinary woman. Read about her, instead of ridiculing her and the field. You may be closing not only your minds, but the door to knowledge that might someday save the life of a friend or family member suffering from the nightmare diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder. Thanks to her alone, within our lifetimes this diagnostic category has moved away from being THE most hellacious, write-off label (tantamount even among therapists, as synonymous with �difficult, intolerable patient�) . Her work, including carefully documented research, now points the way to a �way out� of the mental hell the diagnosis involves. And FWIW, the message is not intended to be, look at this nutcase who�s a famous therapist, but rater, here�s a woman plagued with what had been defined as one of THE most irreversible disturbances, who has succeeded in reversing her disorder AND in disproving its entire model. She is WELL now - not merely, getting by, but actually to where she can say of herself, �I am happy.� When I was recently studying her methods and how they work for compound diagnoses (Borderline Personality Diagnosis and another �axis� - such as severe depression), I was struck by a confused sense of novelty � one I couldn�t even describe to myself. Finally, I realized what it was. Even as a trained therapist, I had somehow lost any real sense that therapy could lead to cure � certainly not for this disorder. The very notion of cure, had, become a contradiction in terms, defying the diagnosis. Therapy of borderline personality disorder (BPD) had become in my mind, a life-long pursuit - offering at best, relief, rather than restoration. A successful patient was one who survived, only � certainly without thriving. Her hope, then would have meant getting by, with ongoing therapy - talking and medicinal therapy. At least as much as with the psychoses (Schizophrenia is known to be biologically determined and defined, genetically heritable) , Personality Disorders had come to be regarded as STRUCTURAL - built into the very nature of the disturbed patient , thus, unchangeable. Instead, Marsha Linehan�s story of regained function and personal � happiness � is proof that even the worst disturbances, can be reversed. Plagued from early youth with a classic disease model of BPD, she had demonstrated she was salvageable to the point where she was able to create a method to save others, WAS able to save others. And one of the most thrilling aspects of her story, is having accepted the challenge of disclosing her own history to the world. Quote: "Are you one of us?"The patient wanted to know, and her therapist � Marsha M. Linehan of the University of Washington, creator of a treatment used worldwide for severely suicidal people � had a ready answer. It was the one she always used to cut the question short, whether a patient asked it hopefully, accusingly or knowingly, having glimpsed the macram� of faded burns, cuts and welts on Dr. Linehan�s arms: �You mean, have I suffered?� �No, Marsha,� the patient replied, in an encounter last spring. �I mean one of us. Like us. Because if you were, it would give all of us so much hope.� �That did it,� said Dr. Linehan, 68, who told her story in public for the first time last week before an audience of friends, family and doctors at the Institute of Living, the Hartford clinic where she was first treated for extreme social withdrawal at age 17. �So many people have begged me to come forward, and I just thought � well, I have to do this. I owe it to them. I cannot die a coward.�
	[size=5] We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.[/size] "Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005


kathyk	Nov 18 2012, 06:57 PM Post #17
Pisa-Carp Posts: 7,334 Group: Members Member #115 Joined: April 22, 2005	Amanda Nov 18 2012, 05:39 PM I'm disappointed, though, that cliches and jokes are the first and so far, only, responses to this extraordinary woman. Read about her, instead of ridiculing her and the field. You may be closing not only your minds, but the door to knowledge that might someday save the life of a friend or family member suffering from the nightmare diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder. Thanks to her alone, within our lifetimes this diagnostic category has moved away from being THE most hellacious, write-off label (tantamount even among therapists, as synonymous with �difficult, intolerable patient�) . Her work, including carefully documented research, now points the way to a �way out� of the mental hell the diagnosis involves. Sorry for being glib. No, I hadn't read the article. I was rushing off to church to do my organ gig and have frankly, been on internet overload for the past several days. But, now I did and yes, it is intriguing. It makes a lot of sense that having endured and tackled the condition would make one more able to help another person navigate the process. In all seriousness, that is probably why a lot of less than stable people do choose to go into the psycho-helping fields. I have my own, all too personal story about dealing with someone with borderline/narcissistic personalty disorder. What a total trip it can be! Edited by kathyk, Nov 19 2012, 02:22 PM.
	Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/


Horace	Nov 18 2012, 06:58 PM Post #18
HOLY CARP!!! Posts: 17,885 Group: Members Member #101 Joined: April 20, 2005	Certainly is remarkable. My feeling is that the usefulness of therapy is in a patient's ability to believe that the therapist is an authority figure who knows what's best. It's mostly placebo. Then the therapist's pretty words have meaning to the patient, and they can lacquer over the patient's issues with enough of them. A therapist being "one of them" as well as being intelligent, insightful, and educated seems like the ultimate in that. If she accepts her patients and all their flaws, that goes a long way towards them accepting themselves, since they've delegated their self-image to her in some sense. But it might still be a question whether she and her personal touch is the primary advantage her own practice has rather than her academic theories about radical acceptance.
	As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?


Amanda	Nov 18 2012, 07:53 PM Post #19
Senior Carp Posts: 2,409 Group: Members Member #100 Joined: April 20, 2005	Mikhailoh Nov 18 2012, 05:30 PM I disagree that an excess of introspection cannot harm one as I have seen that it can. Now, if you wish to argue that the tendency to engage in it so indicates some underlying issue or pathology that led the individual to that action I would not disagree but that knowledge was not available to me. I�m kind of confused about your argument here, Mikhailoh. It seems you�re making at least two separate claims, about introspection: the first, that (in �excess�) it can lead to adult mental illness, and the second, that you yourself know it�s true, because you�ve experienced it. My reply was about the notion that this could be true � to the degree it could cause mental illness and affect those in a given field - mental health practitioners. In fact, though, I would have to take exception with the whole contention � as expressed, anyhow - the belief that �people aren�t made to stand X amount of introspection�. If you are speaking of solitary confinement, such as in prisons, I might agree that it�s a very unhealthy practice, and can cause or aggravate mental illness. Sadly, we have what amounts to numerous laboratory experiments to prove this point, especially under specific conditions, in which the �subjects� are not able to access either computers, books or other means of communication. Taken generally, though, I couldn't agree to anything there, least of all the implication, that human nature dictates that "too much..." is harmful, on the basis of an "in all cases" scenario � not without a whole lot of contextual cues. Especially, the term "introspection" (literally, inward thinking) ; it means little without knowing WHAT the person is thinking about . And how is the mental activity defined? Is is s/he thinking or - obsessing? Dwelling on anxieties? Daydreaming? Or some other mental activity, which could be more precisely described. And what might make that behavior "excessive" for an individual? Like sleep, norms differ. And is the notion of "excess", being brought to the table by that individual or is it something an observer is suggesting? I�m trying to address your self-references as if a patient had expressed the thought. Psychotherapy involves ultimate subjectivity, so the process of dealing with a patient, requires sensitivity to the special meanings that person attaches to every word they use. OTOH I could also not say, the statement is UNTRUE! "It all depends". I suppose I could agree that if a patient feels that something is excessive, it IS a problem. Whether or not the problem is one of objective "excess", the patient's dissatisfaction needs to be explored. The generalization is still a problem, though.
	[size=5] We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.[/size] "Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005


Mikhailoh	Nov 18 2012, 08:18 PM Post #20
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead Posts: 92,842 Group: Members Member #181 Joined: April 26, 2005	No, dear, I'm not the patient but the observer.
	Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball


Larry	Nov 18 2012, 08:40 PM Post #21
Mmmmmmm, pie! Posts: 47,996 Group: Members Member #113 Joined: April 22, 2005	Ask anyone in college, and they'll tell you all the nutjobs are the psych majors....
	Of the Pokatwat Tribe


Aqua Letifer	Nov 19 2012, 12:02 PM Post #22
ZOOOOOM! Posts: 45,901 Group: Members Member #262 Joined: September 22, 2005	Larry Nov 18 2012, 08:40 PM Ask anyone in college, and they'll tell you all the nutjobs are the psych majors.... I can attest to that. A good friend of mine did psych; getting his PhD in it now. Talking with him is weird. It's like you're not talking to him anymore, you're talking to who he believes would be the most normal, measured version of himself.
	I cite irreconcilable differences.


John D'Oh	Nov 19 2012, 01:12 PM Post #23
MAMIL Posts: 53,812 Group: Members Member #276 Joined: October 19, 2005	Aqua Letifer Nov 19 2012, 12:02 PM Talking with him is weird. It's like you're not talking to him anymore, you're talking to who he believes would be the most normal, measured version of himself. And how does that make you feel?
	What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?


kathyk	Nov 19 2012, 02:20 PM Post #24
Pisa-Carp Posts: 7,334 Group: Members Member #115 Joined: April 22, 2005	Another interesting story from NYT about someone using her own problems to help someone with similar ones. Child's Pose Edited by kathyk, Nov 19 2012, 02:21 PM.
	Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/


Larry	Nov 19 2012, 02:33 PM Post #25
Mmmmmmm, pie! Posts: 47,996 Group: Members Member #113 Joined: April 22, 2005	Kathy, having read your idiotic nonsense about Israel and the "palestinians" on WTF, you of all people are in no position to comment on the sanity of anyone.
	Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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