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| Here's something for all you people who think its OK to kill the comatose... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 16 2012, 01:04 AM (2,658 Views) | |
| ivorythumper | Nov 16 2012, 01:04 AM Post #1 |
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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patient in vegetative state communicates with physicians. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| apple | Nov 16 2012, 09:39 AM Post #2 |
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one of the angels
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if i were long term comatose.... say goodbye and give me a kiss |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| John D'Oh | Nov 16 2012, 09:54 AM Post #3 |
MAMIL
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Being in a vegetative state and still aware sounds like the closest thing to hell I can imagine. Propping someone up for years instead of just letting them die seems needlessly cruel. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| sue | Nov 16 2012, 10:13 AM Post #4 |
HOLY CARP!!!
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+1 |
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| Axtremus | Nov 16 2012, 10:17 AM Post #5 |
HOLY CARP!!!
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Excellent news! Important breakthrough! Big kudos to modern science!  I hope the system continues to be developed so that one day it lets the comatose patients unambiguously convey either "kill me now" or "I want a blow job!" |
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| kenny | Nov 16 2012, 10:43 AM Post #6 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Hopefully science'll develop a machine that can execute the former while performing the later. |
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| Dewey | Nov 16 2012, 12:31 PM Post #7 |
HOLY CARP!!!
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I think that's great, amazing news. I'm not sure that it's going to make a huge difference in the debate about allowing people in a persistent unconscious state* to die, though. The point was never really whether the patient was in pain or not, it's whether it is more merciful to allow them to continue on in a state where they are living a massively substandard quality of life with no reasonable expectation of improvement, or to allow them to die. Having a Living Will, stating your wishes if you're in such a condition in advance, would presumably not change whether you actually had some degree of awareness or not - in fact, as D'Oh has said, many - myself included - would actually think it even more humane to allow a person in this state to die, rather than continuing them indefinitely in this condition. It would be interesting to know if any of these patients were asked if they wanted to continue to live like this, or if they wished to be allowed to die. And even if these patients all wanted to continue on, if this line of research continues, it's pretty certain that many will voice the opinion that they want to be allowed to die. Then we'll get to argue over whether the technology is sound, and whether it might act as a confirmation of a patient's wishes to die in the absence of a Living Will, or whether it might supersede a previously-executed Living Will, or whether it negates a previously-executed healthcare power of attorney. * I'm not sure if it's a widely accepted thing, or just local to the hospitals I was working in, but they stopped using the term "persistent vegetative state" a number of years ago - out of a sign of respect to the patient; no matter whether the person is sentient or not, and whether they are maintained with life support or allowed to die, they are still human beings, not merely "vegetables." Edited by Dewey, Nov 16 2012, 01:04 PM.
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| kenny | Nov 16 2012, 12:35 PM Post #8 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Shame on me for asking but if one of these people could communicate they wish to continue living, who pays for 60 years of such care? Let's say there's no insurance and the family either does not have the money or does not want to spend it. |
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| Renauda | Nov 16 2012, 12:36 PM Post #9 |
HOLY CARP!!!
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Not only that but the poor soul got a reprieve from the enevitable decision of a Canadian socilaized medicine death panel to terminate his life. |
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| kenny | Nov 16 2012, 12:48 PM Post #10 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I know someone with house plants from 50 years ago, no joke. The pots are encrusted with salt and the soil looks original, hard and cracked with white mineral deposits. The plant is 99.999999999999999999% dead and shriveled up, but if you look closely there is a tiny spot where you can see maybe 1/16th of an inch of life so she keeps them around. Maybe they'll come back some day. There's always hope. |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 16 2012, 01:21 PM Post #11 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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The main argument bandied around here was that the "person" no longer existed -- Moonbat particularly couched the whole notion in his metaphysics of "mind". Now that we know that they do really exist as living, breathing and thinking persons (and of course "human beings") that argument is shown to be meaningless to the ethic of whether you can kill an innocent person -- unless of course you think that you can kill an innocent person regardless. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Frank_W | Nov 16 2012, 01:30 PM Post #12 |
Resident Misanthrope
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I don't believe in innocent persons. |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 16 2012, 01:33 PM Post #13 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Of course not, you're LEO. 
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Copper | Nov 16 2012, 02:17 PM Post #14 |
Shortstop
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It seems to me it would be peaceful. No more like hell than visiting here regularly. |
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The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 16 2012, 02:32 PM Post #15 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Would you recommend using a pillow over the face, a bullet to the brain, cut off food and water so they slowly dessicated, or some poisonous overdose of drugs? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Renauda | Nov 16 2012, 03:03 PM Post #16 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Rather draconian IT; especially if the insurer declines or terminates private health care and long term disability insurance benefits followed shortly thereafter by family caregiver's personal bankruptcy will more than suffice. |
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| Klaus | Nov 16 2012, 03:05 PM Post #17 |
HOLY CARP!!!
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Errr... your sweeping generalization from a singular case to all cases of people in vegetative state is breathtaking. |
| Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman | |
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| Klaus | Nov 16 2012, 03:13 PM Post #18 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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If I were in a vegetative state, I'd prefer the "cut off food and water" solution. Letting the remainder of me live would be cruel indeed. Also, the majority of patients in vegetative state is different from the one that made the news: Their brain is so damaged that it is basically pudding. They don't need to be killed; they are already dead. |
| Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 16 2012, 03:20 PM Post #19 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Your response is predictable, and therefore it wasn't the least bit breathtaking. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Nov 16 2012, 03:22 PM Post #20 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Except for the fact they they are still alive. Here's a quick test: is the patient at room temperature, regardless of how you set the thermostat? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Klaus | Nov 16 2012, 03:37 PM Post #21 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Irrelevant. Working brain = alive Brain not working = dead That's my definition of death. You choose another one, but don't argue about definitions. |
| Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman | |
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| Amanda | Nov 16 2012, 03:45 PM Post #22 |
Senior Carp
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"Locked-in Syndrome" has ALWAYS seemed to me, too, the nearest thing to hell. Not altogether the same as "persistent vegetative state" as it's not a coma - but rather total paralysis, except for being to move the eyes (usually). The worst version, has the patient still able to feel pain. Perhaps two recent breakthroughs, though: a) Creation of computer programs able to translate brain waves into levels of communication (WHAT a blessing for such patients, who then become able to communicate to an as yet undetermined degree) b) The discovery that by unknown modalities, a complex and not understood sleep-induction medicine (AMBIEN) can perversely reverse the locked-in and/or unconscious state, so that instead of being effectively asleep, the patient is instead awakened for the time the medicine is working on the brain. Its unusual effect, was discovered by a sensitive and unusually empathetic nurse. She found a way to check out her intuitive sense that one of her patients was, in fact, awake and aware - trying desperately to let her know, he was in terrible pain. At the same time, he had had AMBIEN administered to him. Since then, it's been administered deliberately - its effect, studied. The state of the patient, who hasn't been "listened to" through one of the available modalities, is almost too terrible to imagine. What, for instance, is one feeling when a fly lands on him/her? Or when an itch is activated - and oh so much more...for eternity? The most vulnerable are patients left alone, without family members visiting and attending to him or her - trying to check for responsiveness. Since one potential cause of Locked-In syndrome can be medication overdose, it's one good reason to avoid this means of attempted suicide (Brrr). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locked-in_syndrome This FWIW is one reason I strongly oppose lethal injection as a method of administering the death sentence. Apparently, it's virtually impossible to determine when the prisoner has "accidentally" been left in such a state - when and if the final stage of the death sentence is not, for whatever reason, working. The terror and potential agony from various sources, certainly fulfills the definition of "cruel and unusual punishment". Satan himself couldn't come up with anything worse. It would even be a relief to be able to scream. . |
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[size=5] We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.[/size] "Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005 | |
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| Amanda | Nov 16 2012, 03:51 PM Post #23 |
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Senior Carp
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A (true) movie about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Diving_Bell_and_the_Butterfly One of the miracles in the movie (I hadn't yet seen it) is how in the world they managed to make an engrossing movie about a completely paralyzed man. I'm guessing it must have revolved around his fantasy life. |
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[size=5] We should tolerate eccentricity in others, almost to the point of lunacy, provided no one else is harmed.[/size] "Daily Telegraph", London July 27 2005 | |
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| Frank_W | Nov 16 2012, 03:58 PM Post #24 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| John D'Oh | Nov 16 2012, 05:17 PM Post #25 |
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MAMIL
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It would be like visiting here except that everybody has you on ignore. Oh sorry, I was forgetting... 
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| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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