The Corporate Blackmailing of America is Now All the Rage

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The Corporate Blackmailing of America is Now All the Rage
Tweet Topic Started: Nov 15 2012, 09:43 AM (2,027 Views)
Larry	Nov 16 2012, 09:25 AM Post #76
Mmmmmmm, pie! Posts: 47,996 Group: Members Member #113 Joined: April 22, 2005	Quote: But I still think that there are ways in which the government itself could provide basic services so that businesses don't have to, thereby reducing the burden for companies and employees. The first thing you must realize is that government has not and never will create one single dollar. Any money spent by government to provide these basic services comes directly from business, and from the people who work for those businesses. Secondly, for every dollar you feed government, you get back less than a dollar from them. So no - government cannot provide any services so that business and people won't have to - all government can do is make those services cost business and the people more.
	Of the Pokatwat Tribe


Aqua Letifer	Nov 16 2012, 09:33 AM Post #77
ZOOOOOM! Posts: 45,901 Group: Members Member #262 Joined: September 22, 2005	Larry Nov 16 2012, 09:25 AM The first thing you must realize is that government has not and never will create one single dollar. Any money spent by government to provide these basic services comes directly from business, and from the people who work for those businesses. Secondly, for every dollar you feed government, you get back less than a dollar from them. Right. Everything the government provides is a financial loss. That's why everything the government provides must be so important, we're willing to pay out of pocket for those services. Quote: So no - government cannot provide any services so that business and people won't have to - all government can do is make those services cost business and the people more. Well I was being too general with my terms. What I had in mind was comparing a user-pays system to something more general. Under user-pays, only those who use the program have to pay to keep it running. But under a government-funded system, everyone would have to pay, not just those who use the program. So the cost wouldn't just be borne by some companies and their employees. This would make the costs lower for everyone, but sure, it also means everyone would have to contribute. Just two different ways of looking at it, and most people seem to prefer one or the other.
	I cite irreconcilable differences.


Renauda	Nov 16 2012, 09:46 AM Post #78
HOLY CARP!!! Posts: 10,507 Group: Members Member #505 Joined: September 5, 2007	ivorythumper Nov 16 2012, 09:17 AM There are all other sorts of solutions that are more practical (such as the Dutch model) that no one seems to be interested in... Not true. Something similar was slowly being introduced here in Alberta until a couple of years ago. Respoding the endless complaining from rural voters, the Conservative provincial government backtracked and eliminated the nominal premiums $88.00 per month/family; a premium that the Conservatives themselves had introduced in the 1990's that went directly into health care rather than general revenue. Worth noting that base support for conservatism in this province lies in the rural areas. Urban folk on the other hand, did not question the sound economic and public policy behind the nominal premiums. Just another reason of many I am unable take present day conservatism (pseudo-conservatism) any more seriously than brain dead modern liberalism.



kathyk	Nov 16 2012, 10:53 AM Post #79
Pisa-Carp Posts: 7,334 Group: Members Member #115 Joined: April 22, 2005	Larry Nov 16 2012, 09:25 AM Quote: But I still think that there are ways in which the government itself could provide basic services so that businesses don't have to, thereby reducing the burden for companies and employees. The first thing you must realize is that government has not and never will create one single dollar. Any money spent by government to provide these basic services comes directly from business, and from the people who work for those businesses. Secondly, for every dollar you feed government, you get back less than a dollar from them. So no - government cannot provide any services so that business and people won't have to - all government can do is make those services cost business and the people more. Who care about creating dollars. What is important is that the dollars poured into the health care delivery system are used as efficiently as possible. The US healthcare system, largely driven by the private sector has failed miserably. Recent analyses comparing the costs of private insurance to the cost of government administered programs (Medicare, Medicaid, the VA) concur that the government programs are run more efficiently. Have you ever wondered why the US has the most expensive health care delivery system in the world yet we rank 34 on WHO's list of nations in terms of quality of service - under Dominica and Morroco and just a hair better than Cuba. http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html Why are hospitals and medical centers competing with each other with fancier and fancier buildings and constant glitzy, expensive advertising? It's greed, plain and simple. Medicaid spending in particular proves to be very efficient. Quote: Inflation adjusted Medicaid spending per capita by state general funds increased just 3.8% between 2002 and 2011. . . When you look at the rate of growth for all the major payers � Medicaid, Medicare, employer-sponsored insurance, National Health Expenditures � what you see is that no other payer has constrained the rate of growth in spending as well as Medicaid has. [] The reason is that no payer has been as motivated to undertake cost containment as state governments. As to Medicare Quote: But per-capita Medicare spending has been on a long downward trend, and that trend has been so steady and predictable that a recent study suggested that spending growth per beneficiary over the next decade would be close to zero. Earlier this week we got some confirmation of this when the annual Social Security Trustees report was released. Most of the media attention focused on Social Security, whose financial position deteriorated compared to last year thanks to a slowing economy and an aging population. But using the same economic forecasts, the trustees nonetheless projected no deterioration in Medicare's financial picture. Why? "Once you dig into the numbers," says the Washington Post's Sarah Kliff, "the most plausible explanation is a pretty encouraging one: Our health-care system is getting better at delivering the same medicine more efficiently." Health care should not be a profit driven enterprise. Our health care system has run completely amok. The runaway costs are directly related to corporate greed: big pharma, insurance companies and profit driven hospitals and medical associations. Maybe the ACA won't solve the problem; unforunately, it panders far to much to these very same concerns. It does, however, at least guarantee that no one goes without medical care and is hopefully the beginning for a comprehensive overhaul of the system. Edited by kathyk, Nov 16 2012, 10:59 AM.
	Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/


Larry	Nov 16 2012, 11:31 AM Post #80
Mmmmmmm, pie! Posts: 47,996 Group: Members Member #113 Joined: April 22, 2005	Quote: Who care about creating dollars. What is important is that the dollars poured into the health care delivery system are used as efficiently as possible. The US healthcare system, largely driven by the private sector has failed miserably. You can say more stupid sh!t in the shortest number of words than anyone I've ever met. The private sector is not at fault, nor are the failures in the health care system. The US health care system is one of if not the finest in the world. The failures all revolve around the costs of that health care - not the health care itself - and the cost increases in our health care system can be traced entirely to the ever increasing intrusion into the system by the government. The more the government meddled in things, the higher the costs escalated. Your argument is similar to the one about the kid who kills his parents and then begs for leniency because he's an orphan. Secondly, if you had the slightest clue as to how economics works, you would care about "creating dollars". Your "who cares about creating dollars" sentence was beyond stupid. Quote: Recent analyses comparing the costs of private insurance to the cost of government administered programs (Medicare, Medicaid, the VA) concur that the government programs are run more efficiently. Either you are ignorant or lying doesn't bother you, because that statement is as far from the truth as the moon is from Pluto. http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2011/08/09/is-medicare-more-efficient-than-private-insurance/ Quote: "Let�s begin with a fundamental point that almost everyone tends to ignore. Medicare is not actually managed by the federal government. In most places it is managed by private contractors, including such entities as Cigna and Blue Cross. To argue that Medicare is more efficient is tantamount to arguing that when Blue Cross is called �Medicare� it is more efficient than when it is called �private insurance.� Further, there is nothing particularly special about the way Medicare pays providers. Private insurers tend to use the same billing codes and their payment rates are often pegged as a percentage of Medicare rates." Quote: Have you ever wondered why the US has the most expensive health care delivery system in the world yet we rank 34 on WHO's list of nations in terms of quality of service - under Dominica and Morroco and just a hair better than Cuba. First, anyone stupid enough to think that the US health care system is worse than that of Cuba or the Dominican Republic is simply not intelligent enough to be involved in this discussion. Second, if you'd like to find out why health care costs are so high in the US, I've already told you - government intervention in private insurance. In 1970 a single male in his 20s could buy a major medical insurance policy on the private market for less than 30 bucks a month. I know, because I had one. It had a 500 dollar deductible. I paid 500 bucks out of pocket to go into the hospital, then the policy paid 80% of everything until I had a total out of pocket of 1,000 bucks, then it paid 100% of everything. If I needed to go to the doctor's office, I paid for it myself. A trip to the doctor's office was about 20 bucks. Then some wise assed politicians - mostly "do gooder democrats", decided the government needed to start regulating things to death, and now look at the mess. Quote: Why are hospitals and medical centers competing with each other with fancier and fancier buildings and constant glitzy, expensive advertising? It's greed, plain and simple. I get sick to death of listening to you pissing and moaning liberals whine about "greed". I thought you said the US health care system was worse than Cuba's. Now here you are telling us the health care system in the US is so lavish they are actually advertizing to compete with each other.... Don't worry lady - once Obamacare is in full force, our hospital system will be equal to Cuba's, and you won't have to worry any more about those fancy hospitals all over the place that are "greedily competing with each other"..... Quote: Health care should not be a profit driven enterprise. Yes, our health care system SHOULD be a profit driven enterprise. THAT is what built our health care system. Sorry to be the one to bring reality to you, but Socialism has NEVER worked anywhere it's been tried. Quote: Our health care system has run completely amok. The runaway costs are directly related to corporate greed: big pharma, insurance companies and profit driven hospitals and medical associations. Standard ignorant screed from the left, lacking even the tiniest semblance of knowledge about how the world works. Quote: It does, however, at least guarantee that no one goes without medical care and is hopefully the beginning for a comprehensive overhaul of the system. Again, you are quite mistaken. Obamacare leaves just as many if not more people without insurance as existed before this abomination was foisted on the people. Once we actually begin paying for this debacle, even more people will end up without insurance, and those who have it will see a drastic reduction in the availability, and the quality, of the health care they receive. You leftwing loons just piss me off with your stupidity and ignorance.
	Of the Pokatwat Tribe


OperaTenor	Nov 16 2012, 11:39 AM Post #81
Pisa-Carp Posts: 6,254 Group: Members Member #348 Joined: May 18, 2006	Aqua, I'm curious. What was your impression of health care Down Under?



Aqua Letifer	Nov 16 2012, 12:22 PM Post #82
ZOOOOOM! Posts: 45,901 Group: Members Member #262 Joined: September 22, 2005	Well, let me preface this by saying I had a chance to experience several areas as a patient, but as a patient only. I had regular checkups with denists and GPs, went to a specialist or two for random stuff like bites, had some labwork done, and was in hospital quarantine for about four days. But I am not a policy analyst, nor am I an expert on international health care systems. It was fantastic. I paid for health cover before I left, for the full duration of my stay there, as required by my visa. I paid a few hundred bucks for the year and a half I was there. No long lines. I never waited longer than 15 minutes in any waiting room. No weird waiting in the doctor's offices, either; they called me back, I spoke with the docs, they did their thing and I left. No waiting at all for prescriptions. I walked in, gave them my 'scrip, they pulled it from the shelf and I was on my way. No "It'll be ready in 30 minutes" bull** and my copay was a joke compared to here. Glasses were half off. Eye exams were free. The emergency room was fine. I didn't wait long to see a doc (but mind you I had a 105.3 fever), and once out of observation I had three docs working on my case; they came in every 3 hours to see how I was doing. Nurses were always around. At the end of my 4-day stay, I signed a form and left. No copay for any of it. Again, I am not a policy expert. And I fully realize that I happened to be in Sydney, the largest city in New South Wales, one of the most if not the most metropolitan Australian state in the country. But I can't speak of their health care highly enough. I don't care if my experience is not appropriately representative or if it makes me a socialist or not. The last time I went to the emergency room it was in my country, in which I found out that my insurance wouldn't cover large parts of my care costs, and while I was gasping for breath from inhaling black mold on the job I had to deal with a ing "customer care representative" at the hospital who made me sign some liability forms before the doctor would treat me. Afterwards I had a full time job that paid well and I made payments on my bills, but they still reported me to collections and hounded my ass for months, harassing me at work and at odd hours of the night for not paying in full. I had to call my state Attorney General's office and report them just to be left the ** alone. I feel comfortable making comparisons based solely on personal experience. I prefer their system.
	I cite irreconcilable differences.


kathyk	Nov 16 2012, 12:55 PM Post #83
Pisa-Carp Posts: 7,334 Group: Members Member #115 Joined: April 22, 2005	So, Larry, are you going to argue with the World Health Organizations assessment of quality of care? I backed up everything I said with sources. You just blow smoke. As to how the health care system in the US compares to Australia, here's another interesting study. How does quality of care compare in 5 countries: Australia, Canada, New Zealand, England, and the United States. Quote: While the United States often performs relatively well for this set of indicators, it is difficult to conclude that it is getting good value for its medical care dollar from these data. The huge difference in the amount the United States spends on health care compared with the other countries could very well be justified if the extra money provided extra benefits. Population surveys have shown that the extra spending is probably not buying better experiences with the health care system, with the exception of shorter waits for nonurgent surgery.30 Earlier studies have shown the United States to be in the bottom quartile of population health indicators such as life expectancy and infant mortality.31 Our results also fail to reveal what the extra spending has bought, although there are many important places to look.
	Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/


Axtremus	Nov 16 2012, 12:59 PM Post #84
HOLY CARP!!! Posts: 35,700 Group: Members Member #15 Joined: April 18, 2005	Aqua Letifer Nov 16 2012, 12:22 PM Well, let me preface this by saying I had a chance to experience several areas as a patient, but as a patient only. I had regular checkups with denists and GPs, went to a specialist or two for random stuff like bites, had some labwork done, and was in hospital quarantine for about four days. But I am not a policy analyst, nor am I an expert on international health care systems. It was fantastic. I paid for health cover before I left, for the full duration of my stay there, as required by my visa. I paid a few hundred bucks for the year and a half I was there. No long lines. I never waited longer than 15 minutes in any waiting room. No weird waiting in the doctor's offices, either; they called me back, I spoke with the docs, they did their thing and I left. No waiting at all for prescriptions. I walked in, gave them my 'scrip, they pulled it from the shelf and I was on my way. No "It'll be ready in 30 minutes" bull** and my copay was a joke compared to here. Glasses were half off. Eye exams were free. The emergency room was fine. I didn't wait long to see a doc (but mind you I had a 105.3 fever), and once out of observation I had three docs working on my case; they came in every 3 hours to see how I was doing. Nurses were always around. At the end of my 4-day stay, I signed a form and left. No copay for any of it. Again, I am not a policy expert. And I fully realize that I happened to be in Sydney, the largest city in New South Wales, one of the most if not the most metropolitan Australian state in the country. But I can't speak of their health care highly enough. I don't care if my experience is not appropriately representative or if it makes me a socialist or not. The last time I went to the emergency room it was in my country, in which I found out that my insurance wouldn't cover large parts of my care costs, and while I was gasping for breath from inhaling black mold on the job I had to deal with a ing "customer care representative" at the hospital who made me sign some liability forms before the doctor would treat me. Afterwards I had a full time job that paid well and I made payments on my bills, but they still reported me to collections and hounded my ass for months, harassing me at work and at odd hours of the night for not paying in full. I had to call my state Attorney General's office and report them just to be left the ** alone. I feel comfortable making comparisons based solely on personal experience. I prefer their system. Pppfffffttt ... a year or two abroad and you disavow the superiority of the US private healthcare system. ( )



ivorythumper	Nov 16 2012, 01:15 PM Post #85
I am so adjective that I verb nouns! Posts: 50,666 Group: Members Member #164 Joined: April 24, 2005	Renauda Nov 16 2012, 09:46 AM ivorythumper Nov 16 2012, 09:17 AM There are all other sorts of solutions that are more practical (such as the Dutch model) that no one seems to be interested in... Not true. Something similar was slowly being introduced here in Alberta until a couple of years ago. Respoding the endless complaining from rural voters, the Conservative provincial government backtracked and eliminated the nominal premiums $88.00 per month/family; a premium that the Conservatives themselves had introduced in the 1990's that went directly into health care rather than general revenue. Worth noting that base support for conservatism in this province lies in the rural areas. Urban folk on the other hand, did not question the sound economic and public policy behind the nominal premiums. Just another reason of many I am unable take present day conservatism (pseudo-conservatism) any more seriously than brain dead modern liberalism. Why does the Canadian failure to do something right mean that the Dutch model is wrong?
	The dogma lives loudly within me.


Renauda	Nov 16 2012, 01:21 PM Post #86
HOLY CARP!!! Posts: 10,507 Group: Members Member #505 Joined: September 5, 2007	Where did I say that? I gave you an example of where the conservative portion of the population who felt entitled to premium free health care insurance coverage nixed a modified Dutch model that was working. Get with it.



ivorythumper	Nov 16 2012, 01:23 PM Post #87
I am so adjective that I verb nouns! Posts: 50,666 Group: Members Member #164 Joined: April 24, 2005	What did you mean by "Not true"?
	The dogma lives loudly within me.


Larry	Nov 16 2012, 01:25 PM Post #88
Mmmmmmm, pie! Posts: 47,996 Group: Members Member #113 Joined: April 22, 2005	Quote: So, Larry, are you going to argue with the World Health Organizations assessment of quality of care? Yes, if the WHO is claiming that Cuba has better health care than the US, you bet I'm going to argue with it. The WHO also claimed that North Korea's health system is the envy of the developing world. Here - read just how worthless the WHO's health care rankings are: http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp101.pdf It's nothing more than an ideologically driven, worthless piece of crap. And morons like you fall for it.
	Of the Pokatwat Tribe


Renauda	Nov 16 2012, 01:29 PM Post #89
HOLY CARP!!! Posts: 10,507 Group: Members Member #505 Joined: September 5, 2007	ivorythumper Nov 16 2012, 01:23 PM What did you mean by "Not true"? My example shows that immediate recourse to centralized, bureaucratic, monopolistic, collectivist government model is not limited to the left.



ivorythumper	Nov 16 2012, 01:31 PM Post #90
I am so adjective that I verb nouns! Posts: 50,666 Group: Members Member #164 Joined: April 24, 2005	Renauda Nov 16 2012, 01:29 PM ivorythumper Nov 16 2012, 01:23 PM What did you mean by "Not true"? My example shows that immediate recourse to centralized, bureaucratic, monopolistic, collectivist government model is not limited to the left. It prolly would have helped if you quoted the whole original message rather than eliding the really important part you wanted to discuss and start with "Not True".
	The dogma lives loudly within me.


Renauda	Nov 16 2012, 01:37 PM Post #91
HOLY CARP!!! Posts: 10,507 Group: Members Member #505 Joined: September 5, 2007	Everyone else understood.



OperaTenor	Nov 16 2012, 01:49 PM Post #92
Pisa-Carp Posts: 6,254 Group: Members Member #348 Joined: May 18, 2006	Aqua Letifer Nov 16 2012, 12:22 PM Well, let me preface this by saying I had a chance to experience several areas as a patient, but as a patient only. I had regular checkups with denists and GPs, went to a specialist or two for random stuff like bites, had some labwork done, and was in hospital quarantine for about four days. But I am not a policy analyst, nor am I an expert on international health care systems. It was fantastic. I paid for health cover before I left, for the full duration of my stay there, as required by my visa. I paid a few hundred bucks for the year and a half I was there. No long lines. I never waited longer than 15 minutes in any waiting room. No weird waiting in the doctor's offices, either; they called me back, I spoke with the docs, they did their thing and I left. No waiting at all for prescriptions. I walked in, gave them my 'scrip, they pulled it from the shelf and I was on my way. No "It'll be ready in 30 minutes" bull** and my copay was a joke compared to here. Glasses were half off. Eye exams were free. The emergency room was fine. I didn't wait long to see a doc (but mind you I had a 105.3 fever), and once out of observation I had three docs working on my case; they came in every 3 hours to see how I was doing. Nurses were always around. At the end of my 4-day stay, I signed a form and left. No copay for any of it. Again, I am not a policy expert. And I fully realize that I happened to be in Sydney, the largest city in New South Wales, one of the most if not the most metropolitan Australian state in the country. But I can't speak of their health care highly enough. I don't care if my experience is not appropriately representative or if it makes me a socialist or not. The last time I went to the emergency room it was in my country, in which I found out that my insurance wouldn't cover large parts of my care costs, and while I was gasping for breath from inhaling black mold on the job I had to deal with a ing "customer care representative" at the hospital who made me sign some liability forms before the doctor would treat me. Afterwards I had a full time job that paid well and I made payments on my bills, but they still reported me to collections and hounded my ass for months, harassing me at work and at odd hours of the night for not paying in full. I had to call my state Attorney General's office and report them just to be left the ** alone. I feel comfortable making comparisons based solely on personal experience. I prefer their system. Thank you. It looks to me like you paid attention to how the system worked, insofar as your dealings with it were concerned.



Copper	Nov 16 2012, 01:51 PM Post #93
Shortstop Posts: 29,905 Group: Members Member #426 Joined: February 14, 2007	Aqua Letifer Nov 16 2012, 08:39 AM ivorythumper Nov 16 2012, 08:37 AM It is still nominally the duty of each person to take care of one's own medical... I think that is an oversimplification and not anymore justifiable in our society. It is justifiable. At least when it comes to obamcare it is justifiable. Clearly this program has been given little rational thought. The secret planners who came up with this nonsense missed some big obvious stuff as evidenced by the discussion here.
	The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy


Copper	Nov 16 2012, 01:54 PM Post #94
Shortstop Posts: 29,905 Group: Members Member #426 Joined: February 14, 2007	Aqua Letifer Nov 16 2012, 12:22 PM I feel comfortable making comparisons based solely on personal experience. I prefer their system. Please let us know if anyone ever does the work needed to plan for something like that in the US. That has definitely not happened yet.
	The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy


OperaTenor	Nov 16 2012, 01:59 PM Post #95
Pisa-Carp Posts: 6,254 Group: Members Member #348 Joined: May 18, 2006	Taiwan was able to go from a system much like ours, to a system that provided access for everyone - affordably - where providers and patients alike were happy with it, in six months. Not rocket surgery.



kathyk	Nov 16 2012, 02:07 PM Post #96
Pisa-Carp Posts: 7,334 Group: Members Member #115 Joined: April 22, 2005	Copper Nov 16 2012, 01:51 PM Aqua Letifer Nov 16 2012, 08:39 AM ivorythumper Nov 16 2012, 08:37 AM It is still nominally the duty of each person to take care of one's own medical... I think that is an oversimplification and not anymore justifiable in our society. It is justifiable. At least when it comes to obamcare it is justifiable. Clearly this program has been given little rational thought. The secret planners who came up with this nonsense missed some big obvious stuff as evidenced by the discussion here. Well, interesting you should say that since it was master minded by conservatives. Health Care Mandate was Conservatives' Idea So, is your beef that we didn't end up with a universal health care system like Australia's?
	Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/


Copper	Nov 16 2012, 02:08 PM Post #97
Shortstop Posts: 29,905 Group: Members Member #426 Joined: February 14, 2007	OperaTenor Nov 16 2012, 01:59 PM Taiwan was able to go from a system much like ours, to a system that provided access for everyone - affordably - where providers and patients alike were happy with it, in six months. Not rocket surgery. Instead of making statements like that why not just take quick look at the wiki? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Taiwan There are at least two sides to every story. Saying something like providers and patients were "happy" after 6 months just reveals an obvious, indefensible prejudice.
	The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy


Copper	Nov 16 2012, 02:12 PM Post #98
Shortstop Posts: 29,905 Group: Members Member #426 Joined: February 14, 2007	kathyk Nov 16 2012, 02:07 PM Well, interesting you should say that since it was master minded by conservatives. Health Care Mandate was Conservatives' Idea So, is your beef that we didn't end up with a universal health care system like Australia's? There is a big difference between the idea of a mandate and the requirements of obamacare. I don't necessarily have a problem with some sort of national healthcare system. I worked for a company that made a lot of people wealthy by building systems to support Medicare. It's great for business. I do have a problem with the mess that is obamacare. It is a mess that we are still trying to get a handle on. Now, years after it was created, we are just starting to appreciate the nonsense it contains and how it is killing jobs and businesses.
	The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy


ivorythumper	Nov 16 2012, 02:13 PM Post #99
I am so adjective that I verb nouns! Posts: 50,666 Group: Members Member #164 Joined: April 24, 2005	Renauda Nov 16 2012, 01:37 PM Everyone else understood. "Everyone"... huh.
	The dogma lives loudly within me.


ivorythumper	Nov 16 2012, 02:16 PM Post #100
I am so adjective that I verb nouns! Posts: 50,666 Group: Members Member #164 Joined: April 24, 2005	kathyk Nov 16 2012, 02:07 PM Copper Nov 16 2012, 01:51 PM Aqua Letifer Nov 16 2012, 08:39 AM ivorythumper Nov 16 2012, 08:37 AM It is still nominally the duty of each person to take care of one's own medical... I think that is an oversimplification and not anymore justifiable in our society. It is justifiable. At least when it comes to obamcare it is justifiable. Clearly this program has been given little rational thought. The secret planners who came up with this nonsense missed some big obvious stuff as evidenced by the discussion here. Well, interesting you should say that since it was master minded by conservatives. Health Care Mandate was Conservatives' Idea So, is your beef that we didn't end up with a universal health care system like Australia's? Have you actually seen a detailed, point by point comparison of the Republican plan to what Obama and Pelosi originally intended? Or is this just a sloppy "gee it looks like they used the same words and therefore were talking about exactly the same thing"?
	The dogma lives loudly within me.

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