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| Bent Love; (sermon 10/7/12) | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 3 2012, 02:13 PM (899 Views) | |
| Dewey | Oct 3 2012, 02:13 PM Post #1 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Genesis 2:18-24 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper as his partner.” So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every animal of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper as his partner. So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then he took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; this one shall be called Woman, for out of Man this one was taken.” Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and clings to his wife, and they become one flesh. ===== Mark 10:2-16 Some Pharisees came, and to test him they asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” He answered them, “What did Moses command you?” They said, “Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her.” But Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote this commandment for you. But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’ ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” Then in the house the disciples asked him again about this matter. He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.” People were bringing little children to him in order that he might touch them; and the disciples spoke sternly to them. But when Jesus saw this, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the little children come to me; do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs. Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it.” And he took them up in his arms, laid his hands on them, and blessed them. ===== There were a lot of stories in the news over the past couple of weeks about a little scrap of supposedly ancient papyrus with a handful of words about Jesus printed on it that’s turned up, and the words that were there gave the impression that, contrary to standard tradition, Jesus might have been married. And as you can guess, this possibility has been the subject of a lot of jokes about things that Jesus’ wife might have said: “Hey, “Son of God” – you wanna get your feet off the coffee table?”… “Hah! Water into wine? That’s no miracle. You getting the storm windows up like I asked you, now *THAT* would be a miracle!”… “I don’t care if you can walk on water; I can’t – so remember to put the seat down!” Well, if it turns out that the papyrus is genuine, and if what it seems to say is true, it might be a big thing in thenRoman Catholic church, where Jesus’ maleness and his unmarried status are a basis for the doctrines of a male-only priesthood and celibacy. But it really wouldn’t be a big deal to us Protestants. It just isn’t something that factors into our theology or doctrine in a major way at all. According to the last stories I saw, the papyrus might be a forgery, but the debate about whether Jesus was married will go on, just as it has for almost two thousand years. While Jesus doesn’t really tell us anywhere in the gospels whether he was married or not, he does talk about marriage, and divorce, in general. The passage from Mark that we heard this morning is one of those times. In this story, Mark tells us that the religious leaders came to Jesus and tried to trip him up, and get him in trouble with the authorities, by asking about divorce. This wasn’t a random subject they picked; it was a big topic of conversation because of King Herod’s decision to divorce his wife and marry his brother’s ex-wife. Herod faced a lot of negative opinion from the people over it. Publicly criticizing this act of Herod’s was what cost John the Baptist his life. So now, the religious leaders were trying to snag Jesus in the same public relations trap, asking him, is it legal to divorce your wife? But turning the question back on them, Jesus asks them what the Torah – the Law, handed down from Moses, says about the subject. And showing that they actually already know the answer to their question, they quote the part of the Law that said that divorce was legal and acceptable. So there they had it. But Jesus went one step further. He told them that the only reason God had permitted Moses to permit legal divorce was because of humans’ hard-heartedness – their stubbornness and brokenness, their inability to achieve God’s ideal. That actual ideal, Jesus told them, was that marriages were to be lifelong and not broken up. And as he makes his argument, Jesus refers to the creation account we also read here today. In that story, we heard how God said that it wasn’t good for human beings to be alone; that they should have someone to be their special helper and partner in life, in a direct way that even God wasn’t. But rather than just create someone and just command the human, “Here, this is the one to be your helper and partner,” the story tells us that that’s when, and why, God created all the animals - bringing each one to the human being, leaving it up to the human to name them, and to decide if it was the kind of helper and partner that he would want for himself. Each time, God creating an animal and asking the human, how about this one?... This one?... This one?... and each time, the human not finding the kind of helper and partner he wanted. And then God created another human, a woman, and presented her to the first human, and leaving the decision up to the human, asking again, how about this one? And then, the human agreed that this was the kind of helper and partner he wanted, and he chose her, and we assume, she chose him. So God agreed, and blessed them and their partnership, their relationship together. Jesus told the religious leaders that God’s original ideal then, from the beginning of creation, was for human beings to choose for themselves who will be an acceptable partner for them, and once they’ve chosen, that they should be, and remain, together for life – and that no one should separate them. Jesus’ words in this passage about divorce is a hard teaching, to say the least. Divorce, and especially divorce and remarriage, are issues that affect a lot of us. Despite Jesus’ words here, we Christians get divorced at the same rate as our non-Christian neighbors. One preacher told of a parishioner who said that every time she heard this passage, she felt like she’d had a load of garbage dumped on her, and that no matter how nicely she’d dressed for church, she ended up feeling dirty. I’m sure that some of us here have also experienced that feeling. I know that I have. It’s a terrible sense of failure and loss that a person feels when even the worst, dysfunctional marriage ends in a divorce. And there is real, lasting damage done to the children caught in the middle of even the most amicable of breakups. Given these realities, it’s very easy to understand why stable, mutually sacrificial, loving, lifelong marriage would be God’s ideal for us. But notice something here. Even while strongly supporting the ideal of lifelong marriage - and being fully aware of the very real damage divorce can cause, back then even more than today, and how they’re contrary to God’s original ideal – Jesus still doesn’t tell the religious leaders that people should stop getting divorces. Why doesn’t he do that? I think it’s because he recognizes that we human beings aren’t living in the abstract, in the ideal. And God doesn’t love humans only in the abstract; he loves us as we really exist. In our brokenness. On this side of the gates of Eden. And that means that there are times when God’s ideal is going to have to be “bent” in order to accommodate our brokenness in a way that gets us as close as possible to experiencing that original ideal. That “bending” – God’s choice to lower himself to become one of us, to treat us as if we’re ideal when we definitely aren’t; as if we’re perfect and clean when we’re covered in trash – that bending of God’s ideal, that act of love and acceptance of us as we really are – God’s bent love for us - that’s what we’re really talking about when we talk about God’s grace. God’s ideal isn’t the abstract preservation of the sanctity of the institution we call marriage. The whole purpose of that institution is to express, and receive, love for and with another person. To be a helper and partner, supported and supporting each other. It’s *that kind of love* - not the institution itself – that God’s ideal is all about. So if a marriage isn’t being and doing those things, it isn’t doing anything good in God’s eyes to just keep it going, supposedly in order to defend the institution of marriage, while the people locked inside it die a little bit more each day. It is clearly not God’s will that an abusive marriage should continue. And given God’s desire, seen in the Genesis creation account that we should have a helper and partner of our choosing in life, I honestly don’t believe that God opposes ending marriages where, in our brokenness, there is no mutual love, or support, or true partnership. Quite the contrary. I believe the message of the gospel is that love is God’s ultimate ideal: if what we’re doing increases and enables love, it is moving closer to God's ideal and Christ's example. If what we’re doing prevents or obstructs or is absent of love, we’re moving away from God's ideal and Christ's example. The morning after Lori and I finally decided to split up, I walked into a class at the seminary, still in a deep state of shock and depression. And wouldn’t you know that somehow, without knowing anything about what I was in the middle of, the professor veered into a discussion about marriage and divorce. As I bit my lip and stared at my shoes trying to avoid eye contact, I heard him say, “Some people believe that God has selected one special person in this world, just for you, who’s supposed to be your mate. And it’s your job to find that person, and marry them, and stay together for the rest of your lives. In that view, for the two of you to divorce would be to obstruct God’s will for you, and that would be a sin. But I don’t believe it works that way. I believe that God allows us to find and chose for ourselves the person that we think is right for us. And once we make our choice, God looks at the couple and basically says, “OK, what can I make of this?” And sometimes, God’s plans for you end up meaning that you stay together for your entire lives. And other times, it’s God’s will that the two of you will do certain things together, but at some point God will call you both in different directions – maybe even with other partners. And if that’s the case – if that’s the direction God is leading you – then for the two of you to stay together would be to obstruct God’s will for you – and *that* would be a sin.” In our society today, it’s all too common to get married for the wrong reasons, or to want to bail out of a marriage too quickly, not wanting to do the real hard work needed to make any marriage work. We need to take Jesus’ words much more seriously than that. Marriage *is* supposed to be a lifelong relationship, according to God’s ideal, and we can’t just sluff that off. If we’re married, and our relationship is in trouble, we need to work hard to save it – getting sound professional help, starting with pastoral care and including professional marriage counseling and therapy for more serious problems. We need to work at keeping and strengthening our marriages and not just taking the quick and easy exit. But all too many of us here today know that not very marriage can, or should, be saved. And if that happens – if you experience divorce – you do not need to feel like trash, unworthy of God’s love or acceptance. If that happens, the good news for us is that God loves us. Not some abstract, ideal image of perfect “humanity.” Us. Real world, broken us, warts and all. And it’s here, in the real world, that God tells us, “You are my precious child, and I love you. And I will work with you so you can experience as close to my ideal as you’re able to. And I will bless that, and I will bless you. And don’t let anyone – ANYONE – tell you that your divorce has made you in some way a bigger sinner or unworthy of my call to you. Those are the kind of obstructionist people I was talking about when I said it would be better for them to have a millstone tied around their neck, and for them to be thrown into the sea. You remember that David was an adulterer, and I still loved him and made him a great king. You remember that Moses was a murderer, and I still loved him and made him a great leader of the people. You remember that Jacob was a con artist, and I still loved him and blessed him, and made him great. And you remember that in your brokenness, I still love you, and call you, and honor you, and bless you, too.” We might never know if Jesus himself was actually married. As I said, it really doesn’t matter to us. But what does matter is that whoever we are – whether we’re single, married, divorced, or remarried – that we always listen for Christ’s call to us, and that we follow wherever, and however, that might lead. We can accept the great news of God’s “bent” kind of love for us - that we were created in love, and for love. That we have an obligation to give love, and a right to be loved - and no failures in our past can change that fact of God’s will for us. Because of that, we can go on living our lives, assured of God's love, forgiveness and acceptance, even in our imperfection, and we don’t need to constantly beat ourselves up over those past failures through the guilt and shame of a lifetime of "Yes, but"s. And I suppose while we’re living into that reality, it’s probably still a good idea to remember to put the seat down, too. Thanks be to God. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Kincaid | Oct 3 2012, 02:20 PM Post #2 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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That's pretty good! (Would probably not be appreciated by most in my church but you know your audience).
I might use the word "inform" instead of "drive". The word "drive" seems to be more confrontational and doesn't allow for honest disagreement, but maybe you want that distinction. I don't know. Edited by Kincaid, Oct 3 2012, 02:33 PM.
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| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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| Kincaid | Oct 3 2012, 02:32 PM Post #3 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I didn't really see where or how you addressed this issue. How do you get around this hard teaching? After reading your sermon I understand that you believe divorce is an acceptable path, but would still think that remarrying is a different thing altogether in light of the above passage. Edited by Kincaid, Oct 3 2012, 03:27 PM.
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| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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| Frank_W | Oct 3 2012, 03:03 PM Post #4 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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Very good sermon, and strangely applicable in my life, right at this very moment, my friend. Thank you. |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| ivorythumper | Oct 3 2012, 05:21 PM Post #5 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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And the Orthodox, and the Copts, and the Syro-Malankara, and the Maronites, and the Melkites, and the Armenian Apostolics, and the Chaldeans, and virtually all Christians before the Reformation. It is bizarre and unscholarly to suggest that these "drive" anything -- the doctrines are ancient and Scriptural and universal among the Apostolic Churches. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Oct 3 2012, 05:24 PM Post #6 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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"bent love" is a peculiar, even queer, title for a sermon. Was that fully intentional, given your belief in the validity of gay marriage? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Dewey | Oct 3 2012, 06:02 PM Post #7 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Most of those were from the late-night comedians. But the "put the seat down" one was one that just popped into my head as I was writing. ![]()
It's really neat that you focused on that particular word. I plugged in a half dozen different words in that exact spot, and one of the reasons was to not overplay the point or make it sound anti-Catholic, because that really isn't the intention. "Inform" was actually one word I'd plugged in, and I like the nuance of that word better than "drive." But one other criterion that I'm always filtering my word choice through is the ease with which the word will roll off my tongue - not only in terms of "does the word sound like me?" but also in terms of its ease of speaking in relation to the phonics of the surrounding words. To my tongue, it's an easier verbal transition to say "to drive" than "to inform." Honestly, if this were strictly a written document, "inform" would be my choice. I'll continue to think about that one. Very astute observation.
I never use the actual word adultery, and I chose to not do so intentionally. There is a surprisingly high percentage of parishioners in this small rural congregation who have been through divorce and remarriage and are already quite well aware of the scarlet letter implications; they are already dealing with the feelings inherent in their reality, and they don't need me to reinforce it in their minds. The entire issue of divorce here - the actual hard teaching - isn't the abstraction of divorce and remarriage itself, but the adultery that Jesus flatly identifies as underlying it. In short, I don't get around it. I point out that we can't toss out Jesus' words; remarriage after divorce is adultery, period. The relevant questions to us, though are "So now what? Where do we go from here?" That's what I'm trying to address in the sermon. By not denying the fact that in accordance with God's original ideal, remarriage after divorce is adultery, but Jesus nevertheless did not advise his questioners that they should stop implementing the Law which permitted it - because people hadn't changed from the time of Moses to Jesus, and they have not changed in this regard anyway, from the time of Jesus to today: we are just as broken and in need of accommodation due to our inextricably broken nature. The Mosaic Law was an example of God's "bending" to accommodate broken human nature within the reality of human existence. This is also a forerunner of the divine "bending" - i.e., grace - that God chooses to treat us with, and which covers over all of our brokenness and sin - which includes the adultery that they are part of, as a result of their trying to make the best, and getting the closest possible to God's ideal, possible to them in the reality of their own actual lives. The point of this sermon is to reinforce the idea of God's grace to people who still carry guilt and conviction in their hearts over failed marriages, including second marriages.
They are different issues, yet certainly related. Obviously, divorce without remarriage is far less troublesome while considering Jesus' words. But the sermon is intended to address the feelings of guilt and shame experienced by parishioners whose experience is either. By Jesus' own words, simple divorce would not constitute adultery, even if causing guilt or remorse. But even with remarriage - which is, by Jesus' words, adultery - my belief is that remarriage is still acceptable to God if it leads the couple to successfully experience to kind of help, partnership, and mutually sacrificial love that God said is a good thing for humans. In other words, it can lead people closer to God's original ideal, even if it required a divorce and a remarriage. In the beginning, God said that it is not good that humans should be alone. They need a helper and partner that they deem appropriate. This is a primary creational concern for human beings in God's eyes. That's why it's so important that God will allow it to even trump adultery created by divorce and remarriage. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Kincaid | Oct 4 2012, 10:29 AM Post #8 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I can't really get around Jesus' words in that way. It is quite a conundrum to me. I see how you justify it and I'm wondering if you need to be more clear in the sermon. I thought you just kind of left the issue of remarriage being adultery hanging out there. Maybe it doesn't need to be resolved. Hard teaching indeed. I actually and not sure of my own pastoral staff's take on this issue, but I suspect they just don't go there because it would be very upsetting to so many of the congregation. |
| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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| Kincaid | Oct 4 2012, 10:34 AM Post #9 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I was at that place, telling myself that God wouldn't want me to be unhappy in my marriage. But I don't think it was his will that I end it by divorce. I just can't agree that is the step to take when God hates divorce and Jesus calls remarriage following divorce to be adultery. |
| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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| ivorythumper | Oct 4 2012, 10:58 AM Post #10 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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That whole total depravity schtick can justify anything. Forget any call to virtue, or self sacrifice, or holiness, or diminishing the ego, or really getting out of your own bad self and trying to radically love the person you vowed to love -- God doesn't oppose you dumping those vows and that other person (made also in the image and likeness, etc) and moving on down the road to inflict your brokenness on the next victim. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| brenda | Oct 4 2012, 11:05 AM Post #11 |
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..............
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I've seen people get divorced who were basically unhappy with themselves, but placed the blame on the marriage. Once they were single again, and they had no one else to blame for their unhappiness, they realized the divorce hadn't solved a thing and they regretted the loss of the marriage. Pretty sad stuff there. |
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“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.” ~A.A. Milne | |
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| ivorythumper | Oct 4 2012, 11:44 AM Post #12 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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You say what I say, only much nicer.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Renauda | Oct 4 2012, 11:52 AM Post #13 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Most people I've encountered who divorced had no business marrying their ex spouse in the first place. |
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| Kincaid | Oct 4 2012, 11:53 AM Post #14 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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"We buy emotionally and then justify rationally". |
| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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| Dewey | Oct 4 2012, 11:58 AM Post #15 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Every divorce results in some measure of sadness that will last for the rest of the lives of all involved.
The conflict that you're feeling in this angle of the sermon is pretty much intentional. There really is no resolution into some nice, perfectly tidy and acceptable solution to all problems this side of the gates of Eden. I'm deliberately not trying to "get around" the reality that remarriage after divorce is sin, according to God's ideal. But I am simultaneously pointing out that we no longer exist in God's ideal. We are all, in any number of ways, as Luther famously put it, simul iustus et pecator, "simultaneously saint and sinner. There is really nothing, I believe, that we do that is completely pure and devoid of any aspect of sinfulness. Everything that any of us does is tied in, then, to the exact paradox that you're feeling. It's this very paradox that necessitates God's acting - not us - in order to accept us and reconcile with us. This is a sermon that is all about coming to terms with the necessity, and reality, of God's grace. We're beat down day after day with Law for any number of reasons. In this text, the Law is blunt: remarriage after divorce is sin, according to God's ideal. The grace - the gospel - to us in the text is what's behind the story - what's not directly pointed out: that Jesus simply pointed out the reason for the need for the Mosaic Law permitting divorce was human sinfulness, which continues to this day. And even while pointing out the underlying adultery, he did not tell them that the Mosaic Law was no longer valid or permissible. Among other possible messages, these texts tell us that the most important thing that God wants for us in our human relationships is that we experience the kind of mutually supportive partnership that God was concerned about and helped to provide for Adam - and that since Jesus did not abolish the Mosaic Law permitting divorce, God's desire that we broken humans might experience that kind of relationship as closely as possible to the original ideal, even recognizing the sin inherent in remarriage after divorce. God loves us concretely, as we actually live in the Real World of Broken Possibilities, not abstractly, only in the Ideal World that No Longer Exists, and condemning us for our inability to live in that nonexistent world. Put more simply, no matter what world you find yourself living in, God's Rule of Love governs our relationship with God and among ourselves. God's grace trumps God's law. Despite Christ, we remain simul iustus et pecator. Every day, God overlooks countless ongoing sin in our lives, choosing to "bend" toward us in order for a relationship between us to be possible, since we can't change to make one possible. This is grace. In a world where we're constantly being told we're no damned good, we're sinners facing the wrath of an angry God, and that there is no hope for us because we can't meet some ideal and impossible standard, we need to be reminded over and over again that our reconciled relationship with God - our love and acceptance from God - is not dependent upon our sinlessness. It is entirely God's work, God's choice, God's grace. That's the point of the sermon. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Dewey | Oct 4 2012, 12:15 PM Post #16 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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My former pastor and ongoing mentor (who himself is divorced and remarried) and I were talking about this text the other day. He joked that it was always good to have Associate Pastors who could preach on this text when it came up, so he could avoid it. I told him I suspect it's also a great time to preach on the text from Hebrews, the other NT Lectionary text for this Sunday ![]() But joking aside, it is precisely the tough texts, that touch a raw, and deep, nerve and brokenness and hurt in the lives of the people in the pews - as well as, often enough, in the pulpit as well - that are the most *important* texts to preach on. It is precisely these texts where we need to hear about God's grace in response to our brokenness and hurt. There are all sorts of possible great sermon topics that could be teased out of the gospel text, or the Genesis text, or the Hebrews text, too. But the one that touches on raw emotions, or hurt, or ongoing feelings of guilt or shame or unworthiness - that's the one that needs preached. Christ came to bring good news to the broken and hurt and unloved, not bad. And given the all-transcendent focus of love to God, I see nothing whatsoever in the scriptures that would justify any belief that God would ever condemn a person who has ended one loveless marriage and subsequently entered a second one where there is genuine love, and mutual help and partnership as intended by God since even before the fall, as evidenced in the Genesis text. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| ivorythumper | Oct 4 2012, 12:18 PM Post #17 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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That's true -- but they probably had no business marrying anyone in the first place, if they were not really capable of committing to those vows. for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part It all falls apart in worse times, in poorer times, in sickness (physical, emotional, psychological)... But no one take seriously a vow to love as long as someone stays thin and pretty, rich and successful, healthy and happy, sexually interesting and attractive.... |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Luke's Dad | Oct 4 2012, 12:47 PM Post #18 |
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Emperor Pengin
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I'm sorry to hear this, Frank. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| ivorythumper | Oct 4 2012, 12:51 PM Post #19 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Coincidentally, a good friend (twice divorced, and therefore a credible witness) just posted on FB: "Maturity: the state reached when one realizes that one's life is not primarily about oneself. Authentic religion and faithful marriage are the surest ways for most people to reach it. But of course, many of us never quite get there." |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Kincaid | Oct 4 2012, 02:28 PM Post #20 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Thanks Dewey. God's grace is boundless. Radical. Crazy. Just the sort of thing we should expect from God. Still, for me it is hard to reconcile with intentional actions of moving away from God's ideal. When I was in the middle of my "legitimate adultery", if you will, I remember thinking that it was wrong, but that I was going to do it anyway, because I felt it was about time that my life was all about me for a change. Talk about lack of maturity. I remember how cut off I felt at that time. *shudder* |
| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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| Dewey | Oct 4 2012, 02:40 PM Post #21 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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This, I think, is the crux of where we differ. Adultery, of any type, is contrary to God's ideal. But I do not believe that ending a marriage which is devoid of love - the kind of love that God desires for us - and entering into a second marriage where there is that kind of love, is moving away from God's ideal. On the contrary, I believe it is moving *closer to* God's ideal. Love is the ultimate ideal: if what you're doing increases and facilitates love, it is moving closer to God's ideal and Christ's example. If what you're doing prevents or obstructs or is absent of love, you're moving away from God's ideal and Christ's example. It may sound simplistic, but I firmly believe it's true, and what Christ reveals to us as the mind and will of God for us in our broken state. If that's true - and I believe it is - then we can go on living our lives, assured of God's love, forgiveness and acceptance, even in our imperfection, and we need not beat ourselves up with the guilt and shame of a lifetime of "Yes, but"s. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Frank_W | Oct 4 2012, 03:21 PM Post #22 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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Well, things are amicable. Still a lot of balls in the air, at the moment... |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| brenda | Oct 4 2012, 06:03 PM Post #23 |
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..............
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+1 Best wishes for you and your family, Frank. Sounds like a hard time.
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“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.” ~A.A. Milne | |
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| Mikhailoh | Oct 4 2012, 06:14 PM Post #24 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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With you and your family, Frank. Best to all of you, always. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| ivorythumper | Oct 4 2012, 06:25 PM Post #25 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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You're in my thoughts and prayers as well, Frank. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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That's pretty good! (Would probably not be appreciated by most in my church but you know your audience).





6:11 AM Jul 11