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Romney Speech at Fund Raiser; leaked video recording
Topic Started: Sep 17 2012, 06:56 PM (1,733 Views)
ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Dan
Sep 19 2012, 06:47 AM
Holy Cow Copper! Think what would happen to our whole forum if we suddenly instituted a "need to be fair" rule! The whole place would go up in flames. :lol:

Besides, Jolly's the one that said Romney's statement was the "stone cold Truth". Not me. Not Romney. I was simply asking fairly for him to clarify his statement.
You did considerably more than simply asking fairly for him to clarify his statement -- you suggested your own interpretation of the data to try to render it false.

If you are going to play that game, you're gonna get called on your BS.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Why would a student, who pays no income tax, necessarily vote for the Democrat party? He will pay taxes soon.

Why would a pensioner necessarily vote Democrat?

I am sure there are some people whose voting decision is based on maximizing their share of government spending, but that 47% figure seems to be ridiculous.

Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Dan
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How is it "my BS" to ask Jolly to explain his "stone cold Truth" statement? From my political view, the statement is BS. Jolly clearly differs in his view. I asked for more details on why he feels that way.

Perhaps you're also a believer in that statement IT. I'd also be interested in hearing your thoughts on why it's true if you are. You too Copper.

As I said in my response, parts of Romney's statement are true if you look at the right data sets. But parts are patently false as well or cannot be proven. (e.g. 47% of American's consider themselves victims). So how does the entire statement become "stone cold Truth"?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Klaus
Sep 19 2012, 08:06 AM
Why would a student, who pays no income tax, necessarily vote for the Democrat party? He will pay taxes soon.

Why would a pensioner necessarily vote Democrat?

I am sure there are some people whose voting decision is based on maximizing their share of government spending, but that 47% figure seems to be ridiculous.

I agree -- and I never got his math -- there would be no practical way to win if there was a 47% sure bloc of voters for Obama, since he would have to get just about everyone else including the undecided. But that alone leads me to think that he was driving at something else, used poor word choice and mis-communicated. Alas, that's politics.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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Dan
Sep 19 2012, 08:12 AM
How is it "my BS" to ask Jolly to explain his "stone cold Truth" statement? From my political view, the statement is BS. Jolly clearly differs in his view. I asked for more details on why he feels that way.

Perhaps you're also a believer in that statement IT. I'd also be interested in hearing your thoughts on why it's true if you are. You too Copper.

As I said in my response, parts of Romney's statement are true if you look at the right data sets. But parts are patently false as well or cannot be proven. (e.g. 47% of American's consider themselves victims). So how does the entire statement become "stone cold Truth"?
It doesn't matter whether or not I'm a believer in the statement -- I am only pointing out your own massive "misstatement" that you suggested you were "simply asking fairly for him to clarify his statement." You did no such thing.
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Dan
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Ok, whatever. I'm not going to argue semantics with you IT.

So Jolly, ignore all the tripe I posted about the statement and let me try again. What makes you say that Romney's statement/position is "stone cold Truth"?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Dan
Sep 19 2012, 08:18 AM
Ok, whatever. I'm not going to argue semantics with you IT.

So Jolly, ignore all the tripe I posted about the statement and let me try again. What makes you say that Romney's statement/position is "stone cold Truth"?
It's not semantics, Dan. You made a false statement.

Its curious that you are so quick to exculpate yourself with some appeal to "semantics" that you refuse to extend to others.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Dan
Sep 19 2012, 08:12 AM
(e.g. 47% of American's consider themselves victims).
Geez, Dan, are you really that obtuse? Or does this just fit in with your view of Romney so you don't give it any more thought than that?
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Dan
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Ok, whatever. I'm not going to argue false statements with you IT. As for being "not guilty" I'm as guilty as the rest of us and freely admit it. But, I want to hear from Jolly and others who believe Romney's statement is true.

So Jolly, ignore all the false statements I posted about the statement. Also ignore my professions of innocence if you would and please respond to the following: What makes you say that Romney's statement/position is "stone cold Truth"?
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Dan
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Kincaid
Sep 19 2012, 08:23 AM
Dan
Sep 19 2012, 08:12 AM
(e.g. 47% of American's consider themselves victims).
Geez, Dan, are you really that obtuse? Or does this just fit in with your view of Romney so you don't give it any more thought than that?
Maybe I am obtuse because your post doesn't make sense to me. Please clarify what you're trying to say if you would.

What I said was
Quote:
 
But parts are patently false as well or cannot be proven. (e.g. 47% of American's consider themselves victims).

Jolly said that Romney's statement was "stone cold Truth". In my mind, that part of Romney's statement is clearly NOT true. So I asked him to explain his thought process. He's probably not even online right now however, so I guess I'll have to wait on his reply.

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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Klaus
Sep 19 2012, 08:06 AM
Why would a student, who pays no income tax, necessarily vote for the Democrat party? He will pay taxes soon.

Why would a pensioner necessarily vote Democrat?

I am sure there are some people whose voting decision is based on maximizing their share of government spending, but that 47% figure seems to be ridiculous.

It is ridiculous. Seniors as a class are - by far - the largest recipients of govenment transfers and they vote GOP by a considerable margin.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Dan
Sep 19 2012, 08:37 AM
Kincaid
Sep 19 2012, 08:23 AM
Dan
Sep 19 2012, 08:12 AM
(e.g. 47% of American's consider themselves victims).
Geez, Dan, are you really that obtuse? Or does this just fit in with your view of Romney so you don't give it any more thought than that?
Maybe I am obtuse because your post doesn't make sense to me. Please clarify what you're trying to say if you would.

What I said was
Quote:
 
But parts are patently false as well or cannot be proven. (e.g. 47% of American's consider themselves victims).

Jolly said that Romney's statement was "stone cold Truth". In my mind, that part of Romney's statement is clearly NOT true. So I asked him to explain his thought process. He's probably not even online right now however, so I guess I'll have to wait on his reply.

Romney didn't say that 47% of Americans consider themselves victims. I guess you can read it that way. If you are obtuse or if it just fits your world view so that you don't have to think so too much about it.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Dan
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Kincaid
Sep 19 2012, 08:43 AM
Dan
Sep 19 2012, 08:37 AM
Kincaid
Sep 19 2012, 08:23 AM
Dan
Sep 19 2012, 08:12 AM
(e.g. 47% of American's consider themselves victims).
Geez, Dan, are you really that obtuse? Or does this just fit in with your view of Romney so you don't give it any more thought than that?
Maybe I am obtuse because your post doesn't make sense to me. Please clarify what you're trying to say if you would.

What I said was
Quote:
 
But parts are patently false as well or cannot be proven. (e.g. 47% of American's consider themselves victims).

Jolly said that Romney's statement was "stone cold Truth". In my mind, that part of Romney's statement is clearly NOT true. So I asked him to explain his thought process. He's probably not even online right now however, so I guess I'll have to wait on his reply.

Romney didn't say that 47% of Americans consider themselves victims. I guess you can read it that way. If you are obtuse or if it just fits your world view so that you don't have to think so too much about it.
Romney
 
All right, there are 47% who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government is responsible for them, who believe they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it.


How do you parse that sentence to conclude that Romney did NOT say that 47% consider themselves victims? I believe he misspoke and that he didn't mean to say 47% believe that they are victims, even though he did clearly say that. But Jolly said the statement was "stone cold Truth". So, my question was posted to Jolly. And I'm waiting for him to see it and either respond or tell me to go fvck myself (or most likely both).

And somehow that makes me obtuse? Or exposes me for failing to think too much?
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/18/13943563-full-video-and-transcript-of-leaked-romney-fundraiser-remarks?lite

From the actual transcript:

"Well, there are 47% of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right? There are 47% who are with him. Who are dependent upon government, who believe that-- that they are victims, who believe that government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they're entitled to healthcare, to food, to housing, to you name it. But that's-- it's an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what.

And-- and-- I mean the president starts off with 48%, 49%, 40-- or he-- he starts off with a huge number. These are people who pay no income tax. 47% of Americans pay no income taxes. So our message of low taxes doesn't connect. And he'll be out there talking about tax cuts for the rich. I mean that's what they sell every-- every four years.

And-- and so my job is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them that they should take personal responsibility and care for for their lives. What I have to do is convince the 5% to 10% in the center that are independents, that are thoughtful, that look at voting one way or the other depending upon in some cases emotion. Whether they like the guy or not. What they-- what it looks like. I mean the-- it's the-- the-- when you ask those people-- we do all these polls. I find it amazing. We poll all these people, see where you stand in the polls. About 45% of the people will vote for the Republican and 48% or 49%"

end of audio
Edited by Kincaid, Sep 19 2012, 09:06 AM.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
You really think he is saying 47% are dependent upon government. 47% who believe that they are victims. 47% that believe that government has a responsibility to care for them. 47% who believe that they're entitled to healthcare. 47% who believe they are entitled to food. 47% who believe they are entitled to housing? 47% who are entitled to you name it?

Seriously? You think that is what he said, let alone what he meant?
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Anyway, I guess Romney is a liar because it isn't 47% that pay no income taxes. It was actually 46.4%. So he should have rounded down. Liar!

Also it is interesting that Obama is at 47% in the polls. No correlation in my mind, just interesting that they are similar numbers. I guess Mitt should have quoted the exact poll so we'd know he wasn't lying about that number as well.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
"So, what flings our national newshounds into a full-blown choking frenzy? An apparent cover-up over the terrorist attack in Libya? The nationwide squalor under the Obama economy? Exposes into all the wasteful spending that should be cut before we junk our national defense? Nope. Some stupid comment Mitt Romney made four months ago at a fundraiser lamenting that a record-low number of Americans are making enough money anymore to actually pay income taxes."
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
The Democrats certainly do it up in lavish, sycophantic style worthy of homage to Caligula.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
apple
Sep 19 2012, 03:55 AM
I am not sure what a wazzock is but it seems like that name would be a good slogany nickname for Romney.
Is a wazzock better than a maverick?
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Dan
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Kincaid
Sep 19 2012, 09:05 AM
You really think he is saying 47% are dependent upon government. 47% who believe that they are victims. 47% that believe that government has a responsibility to care for them. 47% who believe that they're entitled to healthcare. 47% who believe they are entitled to food. 47% who believe they are entitled to housing? 47% who are entitled to you name it?

Seriously? You think that is what he said, let alone what he meant?
No I didn't think that's what he was saying. My assumption was he misspoke.

But, if you change the punctuation like your source did that leads me to a different interpretation of his remarks.

Since it was a speech and extemporaneous comments, it's just as valid to put a period after "There are 47% who are with him." And when you do that, his subsequent remarks can easily be seen as applying to only to a subset of some unknown size of the 47%. And THAT then makes the whole statement true and 100% defensible.

Maybe I am obtuse because that interpretation of his remarks was not one I would have ever reached without changing the punctuation.

For at least that statement, the change also makes it "stone cold Truth". So Jolly, assuming you wade through all of this and get to this point, just tell me I'm obtuse and let it go at that.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
It seemed pretty clear to me.

FWIW, I also thought the "you didn't build that" controversy was ginned up as well, with Obama not being perfectly clear with his words. In any case both sides get mileage out of it and the populace is ill-served at understanding the real issues.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Kincaid
Sep 19 2012, 09:53 AM
It seemed pretty clear to me.

FWIW, I also thought the "you didn't build that" controversy was ginned up as well, with Obama not being perfectly clear with his words. In any case both sides get mileage out of it and the populace is ill-served at understanding the real issues.
I don't quite view this the same way.

I put 'I like to be able to fire people' in the same boat as 'you didn't build that', an unfortunate turn of phrase that was hijacked by the other side without regard to context or similar sentiments expressed previously.

My read on this is different, more like 'clinging to guns and religion' - either portraying a fundamental misunderstanding of huge swaths of the country, or, more likely, playing to a myth in the minds of his audience.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/04/mitt-romney-47-percent_n_1941423.html

17 days after the video was leaked, Romney now characterizes his '47%' remark as "something that's just completely wrong."
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
In situations like these, it is always hard to tell whether such apologies are honest or purely strategic. I guess the latter is more likely.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Klaus
Oct 5 2012, 01:38 AM
In situations like these, it is always hard to tell whether such apologies are honest or purely strategic. I guess the latter is more likely.
He'd have been better off saying nothing or 'nuancing' what he said - this just makes him look weak. It's also pretty obvious what he really thinks.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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