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| Progressive multiculturalism is no match for Islamic fundamentalism. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 14 2012, 05:30 PM (1,217 Views) | |
| Jolly | Jun 16 2012, 05:49 AM Post #51 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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You're cherry-picking. I can offer facts, times and places that would rebutt your argument (New Orleans alone is a marvelous example), but why bother? |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| John D'Oh | Jun 16 2012, 05:53 AM Post #52 |
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MAMIL
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Could someone explain to me what it is about multiculturalism that has created Madonna? |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Jolly | Jun 16 2012, 06:09 AM Post #53 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Progressive multiculturism, my friend. You know, where one view of society is no better than another. Where one should not have to place the culture of society above the culture of one's faction. Where everything is right, very few things are wrong. That produces Madonna, and make no mistake, she is an American whore. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Moonbat | Jun 16 2012, 06:21 AM Post #54 |
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Pisa-Carp
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I also think the statement applies to the Earth as a whole. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| Renauda | Jun 16 2012, 06:27 AM Post #55 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Until I read this thread I had never heard the term progressive multiculturalism. Seeing that there has been a policy of multiculturalism in this country since the Trudeau era in the late '60's, this so-called progressive multiculturalism phenomenon must be a peculiarity of the latest wave of republocrat |
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| Dave Spelvin | Jun 16 2012, 06:47 AM Post #56 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I understand the paranoia about other cultures reflected in your second paragraph: Your thing isn't good unless another's is inferior. I don't agree with it but I get it. But the third paragraph? How does Madonna, a midwestern product of the Catholic Church and Catholic grammar schools, get "produced" by progressive multiculturalism? Rather, she appears to have been produced just how you and the other conservatives wanted her to be produced, and yet she still pisses you off. The paths reasonably available to her were constricting, so she forged her own and made an empire out of it. She made lots and lots of money. This is what some of us call an American success story, and you call her a whore. Some of us choose to consider her an artist, and provocation is a job requirement for artists. The fact that you and the silly author you posted have a problem with her is the clearest indication I know of that she continues to do her job brilliantly. Do you think she weeps when she hears the criticism? I believe she smiles quietly at a job well done. A small thing: The writer of the article you posted bemoans the glorification of sin in our pop culture. Are you familiar with the song Papa Don't Preach? In it, Madonna portrays a young pregnant girl who defies her father's demand that she get an abortion. Read that sentence again and dismiss her as a whore. |
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| Jolly | Jun 16 2012, 07:16 AM Post #57 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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She's a whore, by more than one definition. She has prostituted what little talent she has, for the almighty dollar. Sex sells, and there is no finer example than the career of Madonna. From her costuming, her personal life, her song lyrics and the publishing of lurid photographs and text for money, she reeks of prostitution. I cannot think of any instance in which one would point to Madonna and describe her as virtuous. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| ivorythumper | Jun 16 2012, 07:42 AM Post #58 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Evidently you don't understand it at all. Some cultures really are worse than others - like the Aztecs that had systemic human sacrifice and the branches of Islam that have ritual clitorectomies. If you don't even get that, but have to dismiss it as paranoia, there really isn't much point in trying to explain things to you. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Renauda | Jun 16 2012, 07:46 AM Post #59 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Or the ingrained culture of slavery among African tribes. The whole point of the imperial scramble for Africa was that with Christianity, civilization and commerce it would go away. It didn't and likely will not for some time to come. |
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| ivorythumper | Jun 16 2012, 07:51 AM Post #60 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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No it won't -- something are really deeply ingrained and in economically desperate underdeveloped countries, life is really cheap. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| John D'Oh | Jun 16 2012, 08:18 AM Post #61 |
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MAMIL
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One thing about Americans, they love inventing silly terms that nobody understands. Post-modern quasi Eurocentricism is at the root of it, I'll be bound. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| John D'Oh | Jun 16 2012, 08:25 AM Post #62 |
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MAMIL
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So let me get this right, Americans are using products of their own culture as a way of demonstrating that other people's culture are inferior, since Madonna isn't really a product of an unbelievably crass and money-driven entertainment industry that has existed for bloody ages, but is because you've tried to accept everybody else's culture as well? |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Larry | Jun 16 2012, 10:52 AM Post #63 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Modern liberalism is a mental disease - a pathology that leaves its victims unable to think. This thread is a perfect example. Here is a video that explains the pathology of modern liberalism quite well. After you see (or, for you progressives.. DON'T see..) the pathology of modern liberalism and understand how it infects our society today, then read this article on "multiculturalism". Oh, I know you leftwingers and touchy feely types will just shove your heads further up your ass and justify your rejection of it by telling yourself that I'm showing you the views of some fat, white republican bible thumper from the South..... but you would be wrong. This article was written by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown - a Ugandan-born British journalist and author, who describes herself as a "leftie liberal, anti-racist, feminist, Muslim, part-Pakistani...a very responsible person". According to Wiki, "Currently a regular columnist for The Independent and the Evening Standard, she is a well-known commentator on issues of immigration, diversity and multiculturalism. She is a founder member of British Muslims for Secular Democracy." http://fpc.org.uk/publications/after-multiculture NOTHING is for ever. Progressive ideas that are right, bright and appropriate at one historical moment can, in time, fade and decay or become defensive in the face of further progress. I believe this is what is happening to policies promoting British multiculturalism today. We urgently need ties that bind - and multiculturalism isn't delivering them. It risks building barriers between the different tribes that make up Britain today, rather than helping to create a new shared sense of Britishness. Few would deny there has been progress on race relations in recent years, but racism continues to blight many lives. I feel profoundly British, but experience has taught me to put a bucket of water under the letterbox when I go to bed and, just last week, a London cabbie refused to let me into his taxi because of the colour of my skin. I have fought against racism for three decades, and will always support uncompromising action against overt and hidden discrimination. However, our multicultural policies, with the emphasis on ethnic monitoring and on special provision for black and Asian communities seem increasingly divisive and irrelevant to a new generation of young people, and are out of touch with the way our world has moved on. We do not have the optimistic and integrated society we all hoped for. It is not just Scottish and Welsh nationalism that threaten British identity. In these post-devolutionary times, multiculturalism is pitting all communities against each other. People who used to think of themselves as black are now retreating into tribal identities - demanding attention and resources for their particular patch. White people have no stake in multiculturalism, either - it is seen as something that black people do. The English are understandably disgruntled that their ethnicity is denied while all other identities - Welsh, Scottish, Hindu, Caribbean and the rest - are celebrated. Young white kids celebrate Diwali in schools without any sense of how it links to their own identity. The cloak of multiculturalism has been worn by those with no interest in integration. Treating black people differently has enabled white institutions to carry on as if nothing substantive has changed since the arrival of the Windrush from the West Indies. As long as "ethnic minorities" were given some money and space to play marbles in the ghetto, nothing else needed to happen. Whether you look at the BBC or the top FTSE companies, the multicultural answer has failed to transform anything very much. Talking to the teenagers who have grown up with multiculturalism, I found that many young people - black, Asian, white and mixed race - are impatient with the whole ideology. They reject the traditional categories which multiculturalism tries to shoehorn them into. Their notions of diversity go way beyond a love of curry. Although most feel connected to the values of their parents to some extent, their identities are changing in unpredictable ways. Young white men absorbing urban black ways of life (Ali G is really out there), and young Asian girls refusing forced marriages, show how cultures cannot remain static or settled whatever purists may wish. A young black man said, simply: "I think this kind of thinking is for sad old people." A young Asian man was equally scathing: "Multiculturalism is a boring word. It is grey and small and domestic. It does not include Europeans. It does not include internationalism. It is like an old cardigan knitted out of different coloured scraps of wool." Others felt that multiculturalism merely has pernicious effects. Some community leaders use it to justify human rights abuses in their own backyard. Police and social workers are often reluctant to intervene where they suspect domestic violence, in case they are accused of racism. An Asian girl I interviewed said she was "treated like a Paki" both by white people and by her own family who forced her to marry a man who then repeatedly raped her. She said: "Their multiculturalism is just a cover. Some Asians use this to hide what they are doing to the girls in the community. Leaders and politicians let them get away with it." So, whose multiculturalism is it, anyway? The out-of-date term "ethnic minorities" is an obstacle to integration. It is based on the ludicrous assumption that there was once a large, homogeneous, white "majority" surrounded by "ethnic minorities" who were just too strange for words. These measures are even less defensible in a complex, diverse society grappling with devolution, globalisation and integration into Europe, American domination, collapsing values and fragmentation at every level. My criticisms - which are outlined in After Multiculturalism, published this week - have nothing in common with the views of those who resent these policies because they regard this as a white Christian country that must resist diversity. More than ever we need a national conversation about our collective identity. We need to concentrate our energies on the ties that bind us and use this to create a new British identity. Diversity is an inescapable condition of modern life and respect for this is essential. That respect will have to apply to everyone, black and white. But respect for different ways of life cannot be allowed to destroy any sense that we live in the same country. Once multiculturalism has been laid to rest, we can concentrate on developing a strong, diverse British identity rather than retreating into ever-smaller tribes. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| John D'Oh | Jun 16 2012, 11:18 AM Post #64 |
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MAMIL
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Larry, am I missing something, or are you demonstrating how stupid lefty liberals are by using the arguments of a lefty liberal? |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Larry | Jun 16 2012, 11:22 AM Post #65 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Well John, read what the woman said, and see how many the shoe fits. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| John D'Oh | Jun 16 2012, 11:34 AM Post #66 |
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MAMIL
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I agree with what she says, as it happens. However, what she is advocating is a long way away from the rather stodgy, out of touch argument the original article was making. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Larry | Jun 16 2012, 11:36 AM Post #67 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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They're both making the same argument, in a way. Both issues are rooted in the same problem.
Edited by Larry, Jun 16 2012, 11:40 AM.
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Dave Spelvin | Jun 16 2012, 12:14 PM Post #68 |
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Fulla-Carp
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The paranoia is that our fine upstanding Christian capitalist culture will be infected by other cultures or ideologies, like communism, or socialism, or Shari'a law, or whatever else you're frightened of today, to the point that we will lose our identity, subsumed by the raging hordes of "other". Yes, I consider this paranoia. Frankly, I don't see how you can get all high and mighty about other cultures when our nation was founded, in part, on the basis of ownership of other human beings. But as it would be unfair to condemn America because it started off with slavery, you'd be a fool to point to any culture at any time and expect every aspect of it to be in complete alignment with your 21st Century Western mind. If you need to compare yourself to the Aztecs from centuries ago or radical Islam today, then your belief in your own culture isn't so very secure. That's how I understand it. |
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| ivorythumper | Jun 16 2012, 12:37 PM Post #69 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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OK, so you don't understand it. Thanks for clarifying that. I fully agree that in practice our nations' culture and its history is problematic -- but the 'principles' which set us apart from every other nation which existed at the time of the nation's founding, and which were enshrined in the founding documents are significant improvements in the relationship of the person to the collective. You mention a host of other methods of governance -- communism, socialism, shari'a -- each of which is massively deficient to what we hold even today (as much as have been lost from that vision between the creeping entitlements, the centralization of statist authority, crony capitalism and corporatism, lobbies promoting special sector benefits to the detriment of the commonwealth and personal rights, burgeoning and uncontrolled Federal growth, expansive militarism, etc.). It is in no sense paranoid to be concerned and to work against anything that threatens those core principles. The fact that you have to cast it in such facile cracker-barrel pseudo-psychological terms just shows you really don't get the point of the criticism against a multiculturalism that refuses to make objective and adverse judgements against other cultures but rather privileges them over the American experience and core values and tends to denigrate the American ones -- it is part and parcel of the Deweyesque technocratic education package. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Copper | Jun 16 2012, 12:41 PM Post #70 |
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Shortstop
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Wow. Think of that. Perfection right here in tncr. |
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The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
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| Dave Spelvin | Jun 16 2012, 12:52 PM Post #71 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I say you can't make global value judgments across cultures. You say that refusing to make such value judgments "tends to denigrate the American ones." There can be no nuance, no grey, only black or white, win or lose, good or bad, and we will have the final word. What a cramped way to see the world. Do you have any idea how much you are missing? |
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| Larry | Jun 16 2012, 12:53 PM Post #72 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Dave, do you think America has a culture of its own? |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Dave Spelvin | Jun 16 2012, 12:57 PM Post #73 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Yes. |
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| ivorythumper | Jun 16 2012, 12:57 PM Post #74 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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You can't make global value judgments across cultures? So is it's really ok for Aiesha to have had her nose and ears cut off under Shari'a, or are you just prohibited from making an adverse "global value judgment" against that sort of thing? Tell her about all those shades of grey, ok? And be sure to tell her how much she is missing.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Moonbat | Jun 16 2012, 01:05 PM Post #75 |
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Pisa-Carp
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I have no time for multiculturalism and I never have (I have no time for national identities either) but there is a lot to be said for not denigrating the cultures that immigrant populations come from. I recall some research that indicated that children for whom the positive aspects that their culture brings to Britain performed vastly better than those for whom the opposite message was broadcast. In fact in general I think great damage can be done by casting the issue in terms of the superiority or inferiority of some particular 'culture', in addition to the claim being pretty ambiguous in and of itself, all it achieves is the alienation of those who happen to identify with the culture that is being dismissed. Far better to focus our ire on specific practices and principles. Thus we should attack a theologically basis for law rather than 'Islam', we should object to female genital mutilation not to 'Sudanese culture', etc. etc. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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