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Why the gay gene has not driven itself extinct?
Topic Started: Jun 13 2012, 09:10 PM (788 Views)
KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
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You are correct that it could be passed on, but evolution does not act on just a single generation it acts on all of them. Even the most minuscule of reproductive advantages eventually expands over the entire population.

I suppose if we're talking a large enough time scale, then yes - everyone will have all the advantages and none of the disadvantages (assuming no new advantages or disadvantages are formed). We're talking about a much narrower time scale though, such that things can pass on through small segments of the population without being passed to everyone.
My contention isn't that evolution won't eventually select out such genes, I'm merely suggesting that such genes may (at this point in evolution) exist.

Quote:
 
Where's the evidence?

If it were a matter of choice, given the world that we live in, surely no one would be gay at all. You'd have to be mental to choose to be gay in Africa and even in the Western world we still live in a land of bigots - all those guilt stricken individuals unlucky enough to be born to mental religious families would have solved their problems by just choosing to focus on heterosexual stimuli. Further look at the accounts from people who are gay (like the one Ivory posted in this thread) who despite having heterosexual relationships continue to feel gay.

Again - I'm not saying being gay is a choice. I'm being clear that nearly all of our actions are choices, such that it is clearly possible for gays to have straight sex, and straights to have gay sex. My point isn't that gay people choose to be gay - I am saying the opposite, but being intellectually honest enough to say that while we're influenced heavily by our genetic makeup, we ultimeately decide what we do with ourselves, which is what makes the situation Kenny describes possible (gay men having families).
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
Quote:
 

I suppose if we're talking a large enough time scale, then yes - everyone will have all the advantages and none of the disadvantages (assuming no new advantages or disadvantages are formed). We're talking about a much narrower time scale though, such that things can pass on through small segments of the population without being passed to everyone.
My contention isn't that evolution won't eventually select out such genes, I'm merely suggesting that such genes may (at this point in evolution) exist.


I agree they may exist but there must be an explanation for this fact that accounts for them not being already selected out of the population. Evolution has been going on for ~3.6 billion years. Given their prevalence genes associated with homosexuality must have conferred reproductive advantage in the recent evolutionary past.

The same is true of all genes that are associated with some reproductively disadvantageous phenotype, the prototypical case is the sickle cell gene, present in a significant portion of the North African populace yet confers a reproductive disadvantage (sickle cell anaemia) - so how why is it there? Because a single copy of the gene confers resistance to malaria and this is a huge reproductive advantage in sub-Saharan Africa.

Quote:
 

Again - I'm not saying being gay is a choice. I'm being clear that nearly all of our actions are choices, such that it is clearly possible for gays to have straight sex, and straights to have gay sex. My point isn't that gay people choose to be gay - I am saying the opposite, but being intellectually honest enough to say that while we're influenced heavily by our genetic makeup, we ultimeately decide what we do with ourselves, which is what makes the situation Kenny describes possible (gay men having families).


Apologies I misunderstood - I agree that it's possible to choose our actions (indeed that is pretty much the definition of the word 'choice')
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
kenny
Jun 15 2012, 08:51 AM
Some feel that gays, while not busy making children, are the beauty makers, artists etc.
They served the purpose of enhancing the world for the breeders.
Like all the beauty at Up Your Alley.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Moonbat
Jun 15 2012, 09:52 AM
Given their prevalence genes associated with homosexuality must have conferred reproductive advantage in the recent evolutionary past.
We do your hair, making you more attractive, helping your DNA win the competition over those who had their hair done by a straight person. :dead:

I'm only partially kidding here.
Beauty makers are useful to breeders.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
kenny
Jun 15 2012, 08:51 AM
Some feel that gays, while not busy making children, are the beauty makers, artists etc.
They served the purpose of enhancing the world for the breeders.
Um, ok. As long as no one views that as evidence for or against genetic causes of homosexuality.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Jun 15 2012, 10:16 AM
kenny
Jun 15 2012, 08:51 AM
Some feel that gays, while not busy making children, are the beauty makers, artists etc.
They served the purpose of enhancing the world for the breeders.
Um, ok. As long as no one views that as evidence for or against genetic causes of homosexuality.
Sure.

Just saying, there's been a usefulness for us that has enriched the lives of breeders.

Y'all might want to say, "Thanks".
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
kenny
Jun 15 2012, 10:18 AM
jon-nyc
Jun 15 2012, 10:16 AM
kenny
Jun 15 2012, 08:51 AM
Some feel that gays, while not busy making children, are the beauty makers, artists etc.
They served the purpose of enhancing the world for the breeders.
Um, ok. As long as no one views that as evidence for or against genetic causes of homosexuality.
Sure.

Just saying, there's been a usefulness for us that has enriched the lives of breeders.

Y'all might want to say, "Thanks".
That's groupism.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
Thanks Kenny :).

I think you might be able to make a kin-selection case for homosexuality on these grounds:

Having gay genes confers reproductive advantage because it means you're more likely to have gay relatives, and gay relatives mean you have a larger supply of adults looking after you as you make your way from birth to adulthood.

(Not of course that we should conflate evolutionary explanations with what we as humans value in ourselves and others)
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
The term "Breeders" is offensive and insulting. Is this the "tolerance" and "respect" so often espoused by gays? What about straight couples who aren't able to have children? Are they still labeled by the derogatory term, "Breeders," too? The term is entirely moronic.

Guess I'll just start referring to gays as dick smokers and carpet munchers.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
You're welcome. :wave:
I was also pleased to serve my country during six years of honorable service.

Gays are not all lumps of crap yet many right here on TNCR use the comfy privacy of the voting booth to treat us like fresh hot steamy stinky cat turds.
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Copper
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Shortstop

Based on posts like that I'd say you get what you deserve ken.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Here's scientific proof that you CAN choose your sexual orientation.

Clicky
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Copper
Jun 15 2012, 11:55 AM
Based on posts like that I'd say you get what you deserve ken.
+1.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
kenny
Jun 15 2012, 11:02 AM
...yet many right here on TNCR use the comfy privacy of the voting booth to treat us like fresh hot steamy stinky cat turds.
Really? And just who are these people, Kenny? How do you know they do this? What states where we live have even afforded their residents the opportunity to do so?

It's just your heterophobia talking. You don't see your own intolerance and bigotry.


Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Jun 18 2012, 05:28 AM
kenny
Jun 15 2012, 11:02 AM
...yet many right here on TNCR use the comfy privacy of the voting booth to treat us like fresh hot steamy stinky cat turds.
Really? And just who are these people, Kenny? How do you know they do this? What states where we live have even afforded their residents the opportunity to do so?
So if ever afforded such an opportunity, you will vote to affirm legal same-sex marriage, right?

I know I would. :)
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