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Why the gay gene has not driven itself extinct?
Topic Started: Jun 13 2012, 09:10 PM (789 Views)
Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/12/why-are-there-gay-men_n_1590501.html
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... the moms and aunts of gay men have an advantage over the moms and aunts of straight men for several reasons: They are more fertile, displaying fewer gynecological disorders or complications during pregnancy; they are more extroverted, as well as funnier, happier and more relaxed; and they have fewer family problems and social anxieties. "In other words, compared to the others, [they are] perfect for a male," Camperio Ciani said. Attracting and choosing from the best males enables these women to produce more offspring, ...
So it seems that if you reproduce with the sort of attractive, fertile women who are highly desirable reproductive partners, the likelihood of you getting gay male offsprings also increases. :shrug:
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
that sort of assumes that there is a gay gene, which has not be shown.

The dogma lives loudly within me.
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KlavierBauer
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More importantly, it assumes that this couldn't possibly be a recessive gene.

Why would we assume that only gay people could carry a gay gene?
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
It also assumes that gay people don't have sex with women.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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blondie
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As a Mom & auntie, all I hope for is a generation of males who don't leave clothes on the floor, who practice washing & ironing, understand how to mix & match colors, and where the on-off switch is located on the Miele.
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Mikhailoh
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John D'Oh
Jun 14 2012, 04:43 AM
It also assumes that gay people don't have sex with women.
That's silly. All those lesbians do.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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kenny
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John D'Oh
Jun 14 2012, 04:43 AM
It also assumes that gay people don't have sex with women.
Indeed, I read, in the LA Times IIRC, the majority of customers of gay bath houses are straight married men with children.

If homosexuality is inherited, then more men feeling safe enough to come out and live honest openly gay lives may reduce the incidence of homosexuality.

Ironic that efforts to keep us in the closet may be actually perpetuating the gay gene, if there is one.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
kenny
Jun 14 2012, 05:06 PM
John D'Oh
Jun 14 2012, 04:43 AM
It also assumes that gay people don't have sex with women.
Indeed, I read, in the LA Times IIRC, the majority of customers of gay bath houses are straight married men with children.

If homosexuality is inherited, then more men feeling safe enough to come out and live openly gay and be themselves may reduce the incidence of homosexuality.

Ironic that efforts to keep us in the closet may be actually perpetuating the gay gene, if there is one.
Nah, you're about 2% of the population, pretty much the same as you've always been.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Luke's Dad
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kenny
Jun 14 2012, 05:06 PM
John D'Oh
Jun 14 2012, 04:43 AM
It also assumes that gay people don't have sex with women.
Indeed, I read, in the LA Times IIRC, the majority of customers of gay bath houses are straight married men with children.

If homosexuality is inherited, then more men feeling safe enough to come out and live openly gay and be themselves may reduce the incidence of homosexuality.

Ironic that efforts to keep us in the closet may be actually perpetuating the gay gene, if there is one.
Would seem to indicate that it's more of a behavioral characteristic and not so much a genetic one, if true.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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KlavierBauer
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Quote:
 
Would seem to indicate that it's more of a behavioral characteristic and not so much a genetic one, if true.


Not saying whether this is the case or not - but what Kenny's pointing out here actually hints at the opposite.

It would point to the possibility that lots of gay men lead straight lives (as a behavioral characteristic), and thus continue to pass on their gay gene.

Still ... two things immediately come to mind whenever the issue of sexuality and genetics comes up.
1) I'm sure that lots of people are straight or gay based on their choice to be, just as I'm sure lots of people are straight or gay just because they are. It's amazing to me that in 2012 there are still a lot of people who would dispute that some people *are* gay.
2) People carry and pass lots of genes that corollate to things they don't personally have - so why do we think we're being clever when we point out that being gay precludes the passing of the gene?
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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smithodude
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Being gay is fun, I can't believe more people don't do it
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
I tried being a lesbian for a while, without a lot of success. Who knew you could be "too butch"?
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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KlavierBauer
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I'm a lesbian - I'm pretty good at it, but still need a lot of practice.

I'm a total lipstick lesbo though.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Luke's Dad
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KlavierBauer
Jun 15 2012, 12:55 AM
Quote:
 
Would seem to indicate that it's more of a behavioral characteristic and not so much a genetic one, if true.


Not saying whether this is the case or not - but what Kenny's pointing out here actually hints at the opposite.

Obviously they are "genetically straight" enough to be attracted to the women to father the children. If they weren't attracted, the equipment wouldn't work. The idea that there is a genetic component that dictates their attraction in this case fails.

If I were gay, I would find the whole genetic argument insulting. It sounds like an apology. "I'm gay, I can't help it. I've got the gay gene. I was born this way."
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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kenny
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KlavierBauer
Jun 15 2012, 12:55 AM
I'm sure that lots of people are straight or gay based on their choice to be, just as I'm sure lots of people are straight or gay just because they are.

It's physically possible for each of us to choose to engage in straight or gay sex, one time, occasionally or exclusively, regardless of how we present ourselves to the world and our family.

But you can't choose what you are attracted to.
That comes naturally.

You can chose to live naturally, or in reaction to social pressure, falsely.
THAT is the choice.

I guess if some 98 year old billionaire woman proposed marriage to a young handsome gay man he may consider a couple years of gross sex to be worth inheriting her fortune but I don't think that's the scenario you are suggesting.
Maybe a young handsome straight man might voluntarily having sex with, or now marry, another 98 year old man for similar reason.
Or perhaps an aspiring actor, trying to get a part in an important movie, may do stuff against their orientation on the casting couch.

Additionally, I believe sexual orientation is a continuum,
At one end of the line is being only attracted to the opposite gender and the other end, the same gender.
Each of us fall somewhere along that continuum, and where they fall may change throughout their lifetime.
There is enormous social pressure to be at the straight end, and if you are not 100% straight, please for God's sake at least be permanently at the other far end so we can peg you.
The in-between people who cannot be pegged or labeled make many uncomfortable.

IOW people's visible outward live may not match what, inwardly secretly, they are attracted to.
This is very upsetting for many people; this makes many uncomfortable because it means their marriage is not as sure of a thing as they believe/want it to be.

I am an advocate of your outward life matching your inner desires.

Sorry, don't shoot the messenger.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
kenny
Jun 15 2012, 08:00 AM

IOW people's visible outward live may not match what, inwardly secretly, they are attracted to.
This is very upsetting for many people.
It means YOUR marriage is not as sure of a thing as you believe/want it to be.
This blog post has been making the rounds in the past week. Interesting perspective.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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KlavierBauer
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Quote:
 
Obviously they are "genetically straight" enough to be attracted to the women to father the children. If they weren't attracted, the equipment wouldn't work. The idea that there is a genetic component that dictates their attraction in this case fails.


I wrote a long reply to this statement and then realized you must at least in part be joking or being snarky?
Because, obviously if sexuality is genetic enough for one to be genetically straight, they'd have to logically be capable of being genetically gay. If genes are like little binary switches, then for every "straight" wired person, there is the possibility for that gene or marker to be manipulated and turn "off" their straightness right?
Also - if someone couldn't possibly be genetically gay because it would mean they couldn't have sex with women to have children, wouldn't the same logic work in the exact same situation to prove they're gay?
How could a genetically straight man have sex with gay men? He must be genetically gay "enough" for it to work right?
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Luke's Dad
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KlavierBauer
Jun 15 2012, 08:20 AM
Quote:
 
Obviously they are "genetically straight" enough to be attracted to the women to father the children. If they weren't attracted, the equipment wouldn't work. The idea that there is a genetic component that dictates their attraction in this case fails.


I wrote a long reply to this statement and then realized you must at least in part be joking or being snarky?
That's why the "genetically straight" is in quotation marks.

Quote:
 
Because, obviously if sexuality is genetic enough for one to be genetically straight, they'd have to logically be capable of being genetically gay. If genes are like little binary switches, then for every "straight" wired person, there is the possibility for that gene or marker to be manipulated and turn "off" their straightness right?
Also - if someone couldn't possibly be genetically gay because it would mean they couldn't have sex with women to have children, wouldn't the same logic work in the exact same situation to prove they're gay?
How could a genetically straight man have sex with gay men? He must be genetically gay "enough" for it to work right?


I think I've made it clear that I believe ultimately genetics have little to do to effect one's sexual proclivities. There is no genetically straight and no genetically gay.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Moonbat
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Quote:
 

1) I'm sure that lots of people are straight or gay based on their choice to be, just as I'm sure lots of people are straight or gay just because they are. It's amazing to me that in 2012 there are still a lot of people who would dispute that some people *are* gay.
2) People carry and pass lots of genes that corollate to things they don't personally have - so why do we think we're being clever when we point out that being gay precludes the passing of the gene?


Re 1: I don't think it's at all likely that people choose who they feel sexually attracted to.

Re 2: That's how evolution works. A genetic component to homosexuality is a puzzle.The initial reaction of "but wait it would be selected out of a population" is valid, unless something else was going on it would indeed be selected out of the population. Whether the genes involved are recessive or not makes no difference (and in the case of homosexuality there won't be a single gene that is either recessive or dominant anyway).

If these genes exist and I think there is pretty good evidence that they do, it means they must confer reproductive advantage. That could be via a some kind of kin selection effect or it could be that having some of these genes makes you classically fitter in line with Ax's article, but if you have too many of them you increase your odds of homosexuality.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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KlavierBauer
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Quote:
 
I think I've made it clear that I believe ultimately genetics have little to do to effect one's sexual proclivities. There is no genetically straight and no genetically gay.

The evolutionary success of our species proves that there's at very least influence over sexual behavior in genetics.
We only have sex because of genetics, and we only have sex with the opposite sex because genetics moves us to do so.

Sexual nature is necessarily genetic, just like every other uncontrollable feeling we have caused by some chemical change in our bodies.

Whether or not one is born straight or gay is definitely up for discussion, but to say that sexuality is in no way genetic seems folly to me. I can't see how it couldn't be, at least evolutionarily speaking.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
I don't think it's at all likely that people choose who they feel sexually attracted to.

Likely or not - people most definitely have the power to choose what they physically do, and most assuredly have the power to change their attractions.
There are times, even as adults, that our brains work feverishly, rewiring connections and changing "how" we think. Sexual climax is one of the most "potent" of these times, and is one of the times that people can actually change how their brain reacts to certain things.
This is why curious straight men who watch gay pornography feel they might be gay after awhile, because they essentially "train" their brain to be attracted to new imagery that wasn't as appealing before. They fear they've "changed" their sexuality and are no longer straight - but that's not the case.
I don't think genetics dictates what we're attracted to, but I certainly think it helps lay the framework. I think we reinforce (or battle) this framework every day, and willfully and dutifully have an affect on the net outcome.

Quote:
 
The initial reaction of "but wait it would be selected out of a population" is valid, unless something else was going on it would indeed be selected out of the population.

Not necessarily - clearly men can have sex with both men and women, and clearly gay men can (and do) procreate.
If this can pass as a recessive trait, wouldn't it mean it could be carried by a gay or lesbian's straight children and passed onto their children? Like Male Pattern Baldness?
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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kenny
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Some feel that gays, while not busy making children, are the beauty makers, artists etc.
They served the purpose of enhancing the world for the breeders.
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Frank_W
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Breeders??
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Moonbat
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Quote:
 

Likely or not - people most definitely have the power to choose what they physically do, and most assuredly have the power to change their attractions.
There are times, even as adults, that our brains work feverishly, rewiring connections and changing "how" we think. Sexual climax is one of the most "potent" of these times, and is one of the times that people can actually change how their brain reacts to certain things.
This is why curious straight men who watch gay pornography feel they might be gay after awhile, because they essentially "train" their brain to be attracted to new imagery that wasn't as appealing before. They fear they've "changed" their sexuality and are no longer straight - but that's not the case.
I don't think genetics dictates what we're attracted to, but I certainly think it helps lay the framework. I think we reinforce (or battle) this framework every day, and willfully and dutifully have an affect on the net outcome.


Where's the evidence?

If it were a matter of choice, given the world that we live in, surely no one would be gay at all. You'd have to be mental to choose to be gay in Africa and even in the Western world we still live in a land of bigots - all those guilt stricken individuals unlucky enough to be born to mental religious families would have solved their problems by just choosing to focus on heterosexual stimuli. Further look at the accounts from people who are gay (like the one Ivory posted in this thread) who despite having heterosexual relationships continue to feel gay.

Quote:
 

Not necessarily - clearly men can have sex with both men and women, and clearly gay men can (and do) procreate.
If this can pass as a recessive trait, wouldn't it mean it could be carried by a gay or lesbian's straight children and passed onto their children? Like Male Pattern Baldness?


Yes necessarily!

You are correct that it could be passed on, but evolution does not act on just a single generation it acts on all of them. Even the most minuscule of reproductive advantages eventually expands over the entire population.

Think of it this way: who is more likely have more sexual couplings with a woman? A straight man or gay man? Who is more likely to have more children that come from sexual couplings with a woman? A straight man or a gay man? Who is more likely to fight harder for the most sexually attractive (and hence reproductively fit) woman? A straight man or a gay man?

The only way of claiming that evolution will not select out genes that increase the likelihood of homosexuality (baring some other effect that increases the fitness of these genes) is to claim that homosexuality has ZERO effect on reproductive fitness, not just that they can procreate but they procreate just as much and they fight just as hard for the fitest mates - that strains credulity.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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kenny
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KlavierBauer
Jun 15 2012, 08:47 AM
This is why curious straight men who watch gay pornography feel they might be gay after awhile, because they essentially "train" their brain to be attracted to new imagery that wasn't as appealing before.
They fear they've "changed" their sexuality and are no longer straight - but that's not the case.
Interesting idea, but why bother the category thingie? "They fear they've "changed" their sexuality and are no longer straight - but that's not the case"

I didn't like pizza or onions as a child.
Gradually I exposes myself to a little at a time, and now I like them.

Maybe what we find sexually attractive is similar, and not such a big deal as society makes us believe.
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