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| Shroud of Turin was one of 40 fakes? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 11 2012, 03:13 PM (719 Views) | |
| George K | Jun 11 2012, 03:13 PM Post #1 |
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Finally
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2157217/The-Turin-Shroud-fake-Eminent-historian-claims-40-similar-cloths-originated-1-300-years-AFTER-crucifixion.html?ITO=1490 The Turin Shroud is a fake… and it’s one of 40: Historian claims linen cloths were produced 1,300 years after crucifixion Not only is the Turin Shroud probably a medieval fake but it is just one of an astonishing 40 so-called burial cloths of Jesus, according to an eminent church historian. Antonio Lombatti said the false shrouds circulated in the Middle Ages, but most of them were later destroyed. He said the Turin Shroud itself – showing an image of a bearded man and venerated for centuries as Christ’s burial cloth – appears to have originated in Turkey some 1,300 years after the Crucifixion. Lombatti, of the Università Popolare in Parma, Italy, cited work by a 19th century French historian who had studied surviving medieval documents. ‘The Turin Shroud is only one of the many burial cloths which were circulating in the Christian world during the Middle Ages. There were at least 40,’ said Lombatti. ‘Most of them were destroyed during the French Revolution. Some had images, others had blood-like stains, and others were completely white.’ The Turin Shroud is a linen cloth, about 14ft by 4ft, bearing a front and back view of the image of a bearded, naked man who appears to have been stabbed or tortured. Ever since the detail on the cloth was revealed by negative photography in the late 19th century it has attracted thousands of pilgrims to the Cathedral of St John the Baptist in Turin. In a research paper to be published this month in the scholarly journal Studi Medievali, Lombatti says the shroud was most likely given to French knight Geoffroy de Charny as a memento from a crusade to Smyrna, Turkey, in 1346. The de Charny family are the first recorded owners of the shroud. Lombatti found that Geoffroy was unable to join a pilgrimage to Jerusalem after liberating Smyrna, so he was given the shroud as a symbol of his participation in the crusade to Turkey. The Catholic Church has never officially commented on the shroud’s authenticity, but has made samples available to scientists for testing. In 2009 a Vatican researcher said she had found the words ‘Jesus Nazarene’ on the cloth, while two years later Italian government researchers claimed the image of a man had been caused by a supernatural ‘flash of light’. But carbon tests carried out in Oxford in 1988 firmly dated the material to 1260-1390. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| Klaus | Jun 11 2012, 11:46 PM Post #2 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I always found the worship of (supposed) relics to be one of the most bizarre aspects of catholicism. From what I understand, if you'd assemble all the "remainders" of Jesus' cross, you'd have enough material for several crosses. |
| Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman | |
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| Aqua Letifer | Jun 11 2012, 11:49 PM Post #3 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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Never fear then, because they don't actually do that. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| bachophile | Jun 12 2012, 01:56 AM Post #4 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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holy prepuce |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| Axtremus | Jun 12 2012, 03:59 AM Post #5 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Considering that it is quite probable that Jesus the son of (a probably non-existent) god never really existed, of course it is highly probable that all those "relics" are fake. |
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| Klaus | Jun 12 2012, 04:06 AM Post #6 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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From what I understand, there are secular sources which indicate that Jesus did exist, hence there in principle be relics, but obviously at many points in history there was a real market for relics. Well, and if the market has a demand, somebody will make sure there is sufficient supply. |
| Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman | |
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| Axtremus | Jun 12 2012, 04:20 AM Post #7 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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No doubt there were many men named Jesus who existed ... but none was the Jesus described in the Christian bible. |
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| Dewey | Jun 12 2012, 04:32 AM Post #8 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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No Ax, there is no serious historical doubt that the Jesus of Nazareth, the subject of the four gospels, was an actual, living breathing human being, and that he was executed via crucifixion. A person may doubt claims about the details of his life, or his divinity, or his resurrection, but his actual human existence in history is denied by only the smallest extreme fringe. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| John D'Oh | Jun 12 2012, 04:37 AM Post #9 |
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MAMIL
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He looks a bit p!ssed off, if you ask me. He also appears to be the original red-headed step-child. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| JBryan | Jun 12 2012, 04:38 AM Post #10 |
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I am the grey one
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I am reminded of the Black Adder sketch where Baldrick is selling "fingers of our Lord Jesus Christ, five to the box." |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Axtremus | Jun 12 2012, 06:31 AM Post #11 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Sure ... there may be one or more men names "Jesus" who lived in Nazareth and were executed via crucifixions. But without the divinity and resurrection bits, none of those men can be the Jesus described in the Christian bible. To the extent that there are more non-Christians than Christians, it is quite obvious that the majority agrees with my statement that none was the Jesus described in the Christian bible. |
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| Klaus | Jun 12 2012, 06:39 AM Post #12 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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By that logic, Mark Twain is not the man who was described in Mark Twain's autobiography, because some things in that autobiography are known to be false. Maybe more or less things are false about Jesus in the bible, but does that matter? Stop being so anal, Ax. |
| Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman | |
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| Axtremus | Jun 12 2012, 06:49 AM Post #13 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Depends on whether you think those few things under contention matter, such as the divinity and resurrection bits. If you think those matter, then they matter as far as Jesus' identity (and therefore existence) is concerned. Mark Twain lied or embellished the truth when writing his autobiography. So could whoever wrote/edited the Christian bible over the years. |
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| Renauda | Jun 12 2012, 06:50 AM Post #14 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Ax, failing a memo to file by Pontius Pilate regarding the Jesus of Nazreth arrest, trial and execution, there is at least one extra biblical reference by Josephus written regarding James, brother of Jesus as well as some disputed references to Jesus himself. As Dewey pointed out, it is quite probable there was a Jesus regardless of whether one believes in the Christian mythology surrounding his alleged resurrection and divinity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus For what it is worth I too very much doubt that shroud of Turin is genuine or for that matter that any supposed relics are of any significance. |
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| Klaus | Jun 12 2012, 06:56 AM Post #15 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I for one do not believe in the Christian mythology, but it is nevertheless a nonsensical proposition to say that the "physical" Jesus has a different identity than the one described in the bible. It doesn't matter how much of what is written in the bible about Jesus is true or false; what matters is the identity of the person on which the bible is based. |
| Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman | |
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| Axtremus | Jun 12 2012, 06:59 AM Post #16 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Yeah, that's where you decide whether the divinity and/or the resurrection bits are "necessary" to establish said identity. |
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| Copper | Jun 12 2012, 07:36 AM Post #17 |
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Shortstop
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Mark Twain lied therefore Jesus didn't exist. This is some brilliant scholarly work, centuries of tradition have now been overthrown. And we saw it here first. |
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The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
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| ivorythumper | Jun 12 2012, 09:03 AM Post #18 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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There was a 19th century scientific project to catalogue all the pieces of the True Cross, and they determined the volume was something like 1/3 of what a cross beam would have been. BTW, relics are not worshiped, they are venerated. I understand why you would think it is bizarre though, but it is basically the same sort of practice as keeping a lock of hair from one's beloved, or inheriting your great grandmother's china set-- a material connection to a person. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Jun 12 2012, 09:04 AM Post #19 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I like the infant head of John the Baptist. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| George K | Jun 12 2012, 09:17 AM Post #20 |
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Finally
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As to the debunking of the shroud by means of carbon dating, there has been research done since that study that suggests that the samples of shroud used for the dating were pieces that were patched into the shroud to repair damage. Therefore, according to this more recent work, the carbon dating is inaccurate, because it dates the wrong thing. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| ivorythumper | Jun 12 2012, 10:00 AM Post #21 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Yes, that has medieval dating has been discarded for precisely that reason. It is grossly overstating that "But carbon tests carried out in Oxford in 1988 firmly dated the material to 1260-1390." Subsequent analysis of the data does not support that. Recently a palynologist reported that the pollens in the shroud are consistent with the sorts of oils and ointments used in ancient funeral rites in the region (link here) which would be a pretty remarkable trick for a medieval forgery. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Klaus | Jun 12 2012, 10:25 AM Post #22 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I guess the owners of the shroud could be a lot more collaborative with regard to a scientific investigation, but obviously there is a strong conflict of interest here: Why should they help destroying a huge "business"? |
| Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman | |
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| John D'Oh | Jun 12 2012, 10:29 AM Post #23 |
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MAMIL
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| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| jon-nyc | Jun 12 2012, 10:44 AM Post #24 |
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Cheers
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Don't be such a cynic. The foreskin is really that of Jesus, didn't you read the article Bach posted?
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| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| John D'Oh | Jun 12 2012, 10:54 AM Post #25 |
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MAMIL
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I'm not even thinking of going there. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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6:31 AM Jul 11