Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
Shroud of Turin was one of 40 fakes?
Topic Started: Jun 11 2012, 03:13 PM (717 Views)
George K
Member Avatar
Finally
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2157217/The-Turin-Shroud-fake-Eminent-historian-claims-40-similar-cloths-originated-1-300-years-AFTER-crucifixion.html?ITO=1490

The Turin Shroud is a fake… and it’s one of 40: Historian claims linen cloths were produced 1,300 years after crucifixion

Not only is the Turin Shroud probably a medieval fake but it is just one of an astonishing 40 so-called burial cloths of Jesus, according to an eminent church historian.
Antonio Lombatti said the false shrouds circulated in the Middle Ages, but most of them were later destroyed.

He said the Turin Shroud itself – showing an image of a bearded man and venerated for centuries as Christ’s burial cloth – appears to have originated in Turkey some 1,300 years after the Crucifixion.

Lombatti, of the Università Popolare in Parma, Italy, cited work by a 19th century French historian who had studied surviving medieval documents. ‘The Turin Shroud is only one of the many burial cloths which were circulating in the Christian world during the Middle Ages. There were at least 40,’ said Lombatti.

‘Most of them were destroyed during the French Revolution. Some had images, others had blood-like stains, and others were completely white.’

The Turin Shroud is a linen cloth, about 14ft by 4ft, bearing a front and back view of the image of a bearded, naked man who appears to have been stabbed or tortured. Ever since the detail on the cloth was revealed by negative photography in the late 19th century it has attracted thousands of pilgrims to the Cathedral of St John the Baptist in Turin.

In a research paper to be published this month in the scholarly journal Studi Medievali, Lombatti says the shroud was most likely given to French knight Geoffroy de Charny as a memento from a crusade to Smyrna, Turkey, in 1346. The de Charny family are the first recorded owners of the shroud.

Lombatti found that Geoffroy was unable to join a pilgrimage to Jerusalem after liberating Smyrna, so he was given the shroud as a symbol of his participation in the crusade to Turkey.
The Catholic Church has never officially commented on the shroud’s authenticity, but has made samples available to scientists for testing.

In 2009 a Vatican researcher said she had found the words ‘Jesus Nazarene’ on the cloth, while two years later Italian government researchers claimed the image of a man had been caused by a supernatural ‘flash of light’.

But carbon tests carried out in Oxford in 1988 firmly dated the material to 1260-1390.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Klaus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
I always found the worship of (supposed) relics to be one of the most bizarre aspects of catholicism.

From what I understand, if you'd assemble all the "remainders" of Jesus' cross, you'd have enough material for several crosses.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Aqua Letifer
Member Avatar
ZOOOOOM!
Klaus
Jun 11 2012, 11:46 PM
I always found the worship of (supposed) relics to be one of the most bizarre aspects of catholicism.

From what I understand, if you'd assemble all the "remainders" of Jesus' cross, you'd have enough material for several crosses.
Never fear then, because they don't actually do that.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
bachophile
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
holy prepuce
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Axtremus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Considering that it is quite probable that Jesus the son of (a probably non-existent) god never really existed, of course it is highly probable that all those "relics" are fake.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Klaus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
From what I understand, there are secular sources which indicate that Jesus did exist, hence there in principle be relics, but obviously at many points in history there was a real market for relics. Well, and if the market has a demand, somebody will make sure there is sufficient supply.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Axtremus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Klaus
Jun 12 2012, 04:06 AM
From what I understand, there are secular sources which indicate that Jesus did exist, hence there in principle be relics, but obviously at many points in history there was a real market for relics. Well, and if the market has a demand, somebody will make sure there is sufficient supply.
No doubt there were many men named Jesus who existed ... but none was the Jesus described in the Christian bible.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dewey
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
No Ax, there is no serious historical doubt that the Jesus of Nazareth, the subject of the four gospels, was an actual, living breathing human being, and that he was executed via crucifixion. A person may doubt claims about the details of his life, or his divinity, or his resurrection, but his actual human existence in history is denied by only the smallest extreme fringe.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
John D'Oh
Member Avatar
MAMIL
bachophile
Jun 12 2012, 01:56 AM
He looks a bit p!ssed off, if you ask me.

He also appears to be the original red-headed step-child.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
JBryan
Member Avatar
I am the grey one
I am reminded of the Black Adder sketch where Baldrick is selling "fingers of our Lord Jesus Christ, five to the box."
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Axtremus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Dewey
Jun 12 2012, 04:32 AM
No Ax, there is no serious historical doubt that the Jesus of Nazareth, the subject of the four gospels, was an actual, living breathing human being, and that he was executed via crucifixion. A person may doubt claims about the details of his life, or his divinity, or his resurrection, but his actual human existence in history is denied by only the smallest extreme fringe.
Sure ... there may be one or more men names "Jesus" who lived in Nazareth and were executed via crucifixions. But without the divinity and resurrection bits, none of those men can be the Jesus described in the Christian bible.

To the extent that there are more non-Christians than Christians, it is quite obvious that the majority agrees with my statement that none was the Jesus described in the Christian bible.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Klaus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
By that logic, Mark Twain is not the man who was described in Mark Twain's autobiography, because some things in that autobiography are known to be false. Maybe more or less things are false about Jesus in the bible, but does that matter?

Stop being so anal, Ax.
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Axtremus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Klaus
Jun 12 2012, 06:39 AM
... Maybe more or less things are false about Jesus in the bible, but does that matter?
Depends on whether you think those few things under contention matter, such as the divinity and resurrection bits.

If you think those matter, then they matter as far as Jesus' identity (and therefore existence) is concerned.

Mark Twain lied or embellished the truth when writing his autobiography. So could whoever wrote/edited the Christian bible over the years.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Renauda
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Ax, failing a memo to file by Pontius Pilate regarding the Jesus of Nazreth arrest, trial and execution, there is at least one extra biblical reference by Josephus written regarding James, brother of Jesus as well as some disputed references to Jesus himself. As Dewey pointed out, it is quite probable there was a Jesus regardless of whether one believes in the Christian mythology surrounding his alleged resurrection and divinity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

For what it is worth I too very much doubt that shroud of Turin is genuine or for that matter that any supposed relics are of any significance.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Klaus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Axtremus
Jun 12 2012, 06:49 AM
Klaus
Jun 12 2012, 06:39 AM
... Maybe more or less things are false about Jesus in the bible, but does that matter?
Depends on whether you think those few things under contention matter, such as the divinity and resurrection bits.

If you think those matter, then they matter as far as Jesus' identity (and therefore existence) is concerned.

Mark Twain lied or embellished the truth when writing his autobiography. So could whoever wrote/edited the Christian bible over the years.
I for one do not believe in the Christian mythology, but it is nevertheless a nonsensical proposition to say that the "physical" Jesus has a different identity than the one described in the bible. It doesn't matter how much of what is written in the bible about Jesus is true or false; what matters is the identity of the person on which the bible is based.

Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Axtremus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Klaus
Jun 12 2012, 06:56 AM
... what matters is the identity of the person on which the bible is based.

Yeah, that's where you decide whether the divinity and/or the resurrection bits are "necessary" to establish said identity.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Copper
Member Avatar
Shortstop
Axtremus
Jun 12 2012, 06:49 AM

Mark Twain lied or embellished the truth when writing his autobiography. So could whoever wrote/edited the Christian bible over the years.

Mark Twain lied therefore Jesus didn't exist.

This is some brilliant scholarly work, centuries of tradition have now been overthrown.

And we saw it here first.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ivorythumper
Member Avatar
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Klaus
Jun 11 2012, 11:46 PM
I always found the worship of (supposed) relics to be one of the most bizarre aspects of catholicism.

From what I understand, if you'd assemble all the "remainders" of Jesus' cross, you'd have enough material for several crosses.
There was a 19th century scientific project to catalogue all the pieces of the True Cross, and they determined the volume was something like 1/3 of what a cross beam would have been.

BTW, relics are not worshiped, they are venerated. I understand why you would think it is bizarre though, but it is basically the same sort of practice as keeping a lock of hair from one's beloved, or inheriting your great grandmother's china set-- a material connection to a person.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ivorythumper
Member Avatar
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
bachophile
Jun 12 2012, 01:56 AM
I like the infant head of John the Baptist.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
George K
Member Avatar
Finally
ivorythumper
Jun 12 2012, 09:03 AM
There was a 19th century scientific project to catalogue all the pieces of the True Cross, and they determined the volume was something like 1/3 of what a cross beam would have been.
As to the debunking of the shroud by means of carbon dating, there has been research done since that study that suggests that the samples of shroud used for the dating were pieces that were patched into the shroud to repair damage. Therefore, according to this more recent work, the carbon dating is inaccurate, because it dates the wrong thing.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ivorythumper
Member Avatar
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
George K
Jun 12 2012, 09:17 AM
ivorythumper
Jun 12 2012, 09:03 AM
There was a 19th century scientific project to catalogue all the pieces of the True Cross, and they determined the volume was something like 1/3 of what a cross beam would have been.
As to the debunking of the shroud by means of carbon dating, there has been research done since that study that suggests that the samples of shroud used for the dating were pieces that were patched into the shroud to repair damage. Therefore, according to this more recent work, the carbon dating is inaccurate, because it dates the wrong thing.
Yes, that has medieval dating has been discarded for precisely that reason. It is grossly overstating that "But carbon tests carried out in Oxford in 1988 firmly dated the material to 1260-1390." Subsequent analysis of the data does not support that.

Recently a palynologist reported that the pollens in the shroud are consistent with the sorts of oils and ointments used in ancient funeral rites in the region (link here) which would be a pretty remarkable trick for a medieval forgery.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Klaus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
I guess the owners of the shroud could be a lot more collaborative with regard to a scientific investigation, but obviously there is a strong conflict of interest here: Why should they help destroying a huge "business"?
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
John D'Oh
Member Avatar
MAMIL
Quote:
 
The Babel fish is small, yellow, leechlike, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it. It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centers of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish.
Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the NON-existence of God.
The argument goes like this:
`I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'
`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'
`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
jon-nyc
Member Avatar
Cheers
Klaus
Jun 12 2012, 04:06 AM
From what I understand, there are secular sources which indicate that Jesus did exist, hence there in principle be relics, but obviously at many points in history there was a real market for relics. Well, and if the market has a demand, somebody will make sure there is sufficient supply.
Don't be such a cynic. The foreskin is really that of Jesus, didn't you read the article Bach posted?

Quote:
 
Its authenticity was later considered to be confirmed by a vision of Saint Bridget of Sweden.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
John D'Oh
Member Avatar
MAMIL
ivorythumper
Jun 12 2012, 09:04 AM
I like the infant head of John the Baptist.
I'm not even thinking of going there.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Join the millions that use us for their forum communities. Create your own forum today.
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic »
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1