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Documents prove Obama member of Socialist New Party
Topic Started: Jun 7 2012, 07:58 AM (992 Views)
John D'Oh
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MAMIL
George K
Jun 7 2012, 10:14 AM
The other interesting question, to me, at least is this: if being a socialist Is not an issue, why has Obama gone to such lengths to hide it? Of course, all politicians lie but whitewashing your past like this is pretty blatant and self serving.
The very same thought occurred to me when I completed that part of my Massachusetts tax return dealing with health insurance.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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George K
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Finally
John D'Oh
Jun 7 2012, 10:16 AM
George K
Jun 7 2012, 10:14 AM
The other interesting question, to me, at least is this: if being a socialist Is not an issue, why has Obama gone to such lengths to hide it? Of course, all politicians lie but whitewashing your past like this is pretty blatant and self serving.
The very same thought occurred to me when I completed that part of my Massachusetts tax return dealing with health insurance.
One can, I suppose, have a legitimate discussion as to whether that is the purview of the states or the federal government. The current denizen of the White House seems to feel that abortion women's health is an issue to be determined by the individual states.

However, to explicitly deny that he was a member of that party is not an evolution in his position, it's an out and out lie.

And again, I ask: why hide it if it's not so bad?

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Because he'll lose votes, obviously.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Jun 7 2012, 09:26 AM
Quote:
 
'Socialist' is mostly used in the US as a political insult, so it's really a meaningless term as far as sensible debate is concerned. You might as well replace the word with 'baby-killer'.



It's just that kind of complacency that will eventually do us in.

Yeah D'oh. How many times do I have to tell you not to engage in behaviors that will eventually do us in? Every time it's the same promises, this is the last time, you won't engage in any more behaviors that will eventually do us in. And next thing I know, I turn around and you're engaging in behaviors that will eventually do us in. I'm at my wits end with this!
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Jun 7 2012, 08:43 AM
'Socialist' is mostly used in the US as a political insult, so it's really a meaningless term as far as sensible debate is concerned. You might as well replace the word with 'baby-killer' 'unamerican' or worse, 'alien'.


Strange dialect spoken south of the 49th and Alaska.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
My son loves being an alien.

Of course, sooner or later people are going to realise I'm deliberately trying to do them in.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
But of course you are. After all, you must be of the socialist variety.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I prefer the term post neo-progressive.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
KlavierBauer
Jun 7 2012, 09:47 AM
Larry - I'm not saying you're ignorant - I asked you a question about the validity, at least in part, of the claim that "socialism" is a buzz word in this country's political arsenal to make someone look bad to Conservatives.

I think there are lots of ignorant people out there - and if you're one who thinks we're bordering on Socialism, then yes, I'm saying you're ignorant. I would assume you'd like to not see us head in that direction, which I understand (i.e., not calling you ignorant), rather than assuming that you think we're already there.
Could we become Socialist? Yes, I suppose we could - but we're not close to being there right now.
I'm one of those who think we are bordering on Socialism. And if you think we're not, YOU are the one who is ignorant.

I suggest you look up the New Party - here's the link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Party_%28United_States%29

After you've read the link to that, specifically once you've read that the New Party is "social democratic", read about "social democracy" - here's the link to that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democratic

Given that I was not trying to make the point that we were "bordering on Socialism", perhaps once you've read those two articles you'll figure out what the hell is being discussed.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Posted Image


This photograph, incidentally, is of a waiting room inside an NHS hospital.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Jun 7 2012, 12:03 PM
I prefer the term post neo-progressive.
Federally, we call them NDPee'ers up this way. In Alberta, they're better known as PeeCee'ers as opposed the more troglodyte, Wild Jackass'ers in opposition.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
I understand what's being discussed Larry.
John mentioned that 'Socialism' is used as a pejorative term, with little regard to its actual meaning.
You countered that wasn't the case at all.
I asked you if you could at least see the grain of truth in that sentiment, as we're nowhere near Marxism.

That's what I was talking about - and I think many are ignorant of what "Socialism" is if they're under the impression that our growing government is knocking on that door right now - today.

I'm not saying it can't get that bad, or that our growing government is good (or even tolerable). I'm simply stating that it isn't Socialism.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
KlavierBauer
Jun 7 2012, 01:40 PM
I understand what's being discussed Larry.
John mentioned that 'Socialism' is used as a pejorative term, with little regard to its actual meaning.
You countered that wasn't the case at all.
I asked you if you could at least see the grain of truth in that sentiment, as we're nowhere near Marxism.

That's what I was talking about - and I think many are ignorant of what "Socialism" is if they're under the impression that our growing government is knocking on that door right now - today.

I'm not saying it can't get that bad, or that our growing government is good (or even tolerable). I'm simply stating that it isn't Socialism.
I'm missing the point here, KB. Is the New Party a socialist party (properly and reasonably so called)? Was Obama a member of it? If yes to both, doesn't that make a pretty solid case for Obama being a true socialist? If so, shouldn't his policies be understood in respect to his political views?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
The first time I ever heard the term 'liberal' used as an insult was after we'd moved to Canada and were subjected to American GOP propoganda from Buffalo, NY. At the time, I laughed like a drain. The joke's got a little stale, I guess.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Jun 7 2012, 01:51 PM
The first time I ever heard the term 'liberal' used as an insult was after we'd moved to Canada and were subjected to American GOP propoganda from Buffalo, NY. At the time, I laughed like a drain. The joke's got a little stale, I guess.
Yes, it's stale, that's why they have to switch over to the term "socialist."
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
I'm missing the point here, KB. Is the New Party a socialist party (properly and reasonably so called)? Was Obama a member of it? If yes to both, doesn't that make a pretty solid case for Obama being a true socialist? If so, shouldn't his policies be understood in respect to his political views?

I don't know, and frankly I don't care.
The point John made, and the one I backed up - was that the term "Socialism" is frequently misused to smear liberals.
I simply asked if everyone could be intellectually honest enough to at least admit there's some truth in that sentiment.

Apparently not everyone can be...
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
KlavierBauer
Jun 7 2012, 02:19 PM
Quote:
 
I'm missing the point here, KB. Is the New Party a socialist party (properly and reasonably so called)? Was Obama a member of it? If yes to both, doesn't that make a pretty solid case for Obama being a true socialist? If so, shouldn't his policies be understood in respect to his political views?

I don't know, and frankly I don't care.
The point John made, and the one I backed up - was that the term "Socialism" is frequently misused to smear liberals.
I simply asked if everyone could be intellectually honest enough to at least admit there's some truth in that sentiment.

Apparently not everyone can be...
OK, so let's simply stipulate, without need for any further discussion, that the term is (or has been) misused to smear some liberals. The Left has been telling us that Obama is/ was not a socialist, and that the term is/ was being used to smear him. Do you think that the evidence supports their denial that he is/ was a socialist?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
I'm with KB.

I don't care about his socialism, and I don't care about any apparent coverup by the left of same.

I hear conservatives use the word a lot. [Montoya]I do not think it means what they think it means.[Montoya]
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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George K
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Finally
From Then-Candidate Obama's sight: Fight the Smears

Quote:
 
Right-wing hatchet man and conspiracy theorist, Stanley Kurtz is pushing a new crackpot smear against Barack falsely claiming he was a member of something called the New Party.

But the truth is Barack has been a member of only one political party, the Democratic Party. In all six primary campaigns of his career, Barack has has run as a Democrat. The New Party did support Barack once in 1996, but he was the only candidate on the ballot in his race and never solicited the endorsement.

This isn’t the first time Kurtz has ventured down this slippery slope — he has a history of telling these kinds of unsubstantiated tall tales. Kurtz is on the record with the sexist and intolerant claim that the national nursing shortage is the “fault of feminism.” And here’s what the Chicago Tribune had to say about this “partisan attack dog:”

Quote:
 
WGN-AM 720 host Milt Rosenberg erred Wednesday night when he had partisan attack dog Stanley Kurtz as his only guest for a two-hour show….Rosenberg, who is himself quite the partisan, tut-tutted right along with Kurtz. It all disguised that Kurtz really had nothing new to add to the insinuations and innuendo in the guilt-by-association portion of the campaign against Obama in which he’s actively engaged.”


Stanley Kurtz’s latest smear is just another attempt to drum up fears and plant conspiracy theories to slander Barack. Fight back with the truth make sure anyone who has seen this smear also sees this page.

From Krutz's article:
Quote:
 
Minutes of the meeting on January 11, 1996, of the New Party’s Chicago chapter read as follows:
Quote:
 
Barack Obama, candidate for State Senate in the 13th Legislative District, gave a statement to the membership and answered questions. He signed the New Party “Candidate Contract” and requested an endorsement from the New Party. He also joined the New Party.

Consistent with this, a roster of the Chicago chapter of the New Party from early 1997 lists Obama as a member, with January 11, 1996, indicated as the date he joined.


Again, if it's not a bad thing, why deny?

Probably for the same reason that he said that someone thought he was born in Kenya when publishing an autobiography: it was politically expedient.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
George K
Jun 7 2012, 03:51 PM
Again, if it's not a bad thing, why deny?

Probably for the same reason that he said that someone thought he was born in Kenya when publishing an autobiography: it was politically expedient.
I dunno, you as unsurprised as I am?
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
I do care about past lies and cover ups. I also care about socialist tendencies and socialist values in any elected official. I'd like to see more of this evidence of meeting minutes and records. Until then I won't get worked up over it.

I would say about 98% of Americans do not understand what Socialism is.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Truthers. Birthers.

What will we call the true believers of this? New Partiers? Socializers?
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Copper
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Shortstop
Kincaid
Jun 7 2012, 04:04 PM

I would say about 98% of Americans do not understand what Socialism is.

Wiki backs you up on that.

Quote:
 

Socialism /ˈsoʊʃəlɪzəm/ is an economic system characterised by social ownership and/or control of the means of production and cooperative management of the economy, and a political philosophy advocating such a system. "Social ownership" may refer to any one of, or a combination of, the following: cooperative enterprises, common ownership, direct public ownership or autonomous state enterprises. There are many variations of socialism and as such there is no single definition encapsulating all of socialism. They differ in the type of social ownership they advocate, the degree to which they rely on markets versus planning, how management is to be organised within economic enterprises, and the role of the state in constructing socialism.


Of course the definition that matters is the one that paints the opposition as a rat who is out to get you.

In that sense Mr. Kurtz is right on the money.




The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I think that Obama is a committed socialist every bit as much as Romney is a committed pro-life conservative.

Let's face it, all these guys really care about is getting elected. They'll pander to each and every special interest they can in order to win over that extra 0.5% of the electorate that might make the difference between travelling on Airforce One and being at the back of Sarah Palin's bus (1 careful owner).

Throwing out words like 'socialist' is just dumbing down the debate to win over the gullible. Every modern democracy in the world is socialist to some degree.

The sooner we can get back to determining whether Obama smoked dope as a teenager, and/or whether Romney has ever drunk caffeinated soda and stayed up way past 10.30 pm, the better.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
JBryan
Jun 7 2012, 09:59 AM
The discussion seems to have moved from Obama's membership in a party that clearly and enthusiastically self-identifies as Socialist to the use of the term as a pejorative to slander the other side. These two things are not mutually exclusive. Both are true.
I was prepared to believe this obfuscation was due to a misunderstanding but I am beginning to believe there are those who just refuse to see.
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There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


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