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Privatizing the Prisons; Yea or Nay?
Topic Started: Feb 14 2012, 08:25 AM (693 Views)
Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
My point is that many of the labor laws we have on the books today exist because of the lobbying and hard work by labor unions. I really have no idea myself why you seem to think there's no use for them anymore. Obviously we tried that once before, having only government regulate corporations and protect their workers. That's exactly the system we had before unions had come about, and it was precisely due to the inadequacy of this system that we even have unions in the first place.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Feb 15 2012, 07:08 PM
My point is that many of the labor laws we have on the books today exist because of the lobbying and hard work by labor unions. I really have no idea myself why you seem to think there's no use for them anymore.
These straw men are tedious. If you're unable give specific examples of these conditions we'd revert back to absent unions, it's fine. But don't mistake your responses to me for responses to my question.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Horace
Feb 15 2012, 07:21 PM
Aqua Letifer
Feb 15 2012, 07:08 PM
My point is that many of the labor laws we have on the books today exist because of the lobbying and hard work by labor unions. I really have no idea myself why you seem to think there's no use for them anymore.
These straw men are tedious. If you're unable give specific examples of these conditions we'd revert back to absent unions, it's fine. But don't mistake your responses to me for responses to my question.
I have no idea what you want I suppose.

Do you want me to forecast for you how the world would change if we lost our unions? How can I cite specific examples of a hypothetical? I don't know what would happen if we dropped our unions, and neither do you or anyone else.

The best I can do is offer you up some examples of when unions have done some good, but why can't you do that yourself? That would be the easiest thing in the world to look up, like looking up why white is not black. Citations should not be necessary to acknowledge that unions have 1) improved the working conditions of many workers; 2) also done some very corrupt things and 3) have done much in between. Do you still want examples of these? If not, just what are you looking for?
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Feb 15 2012, 07:44 PM
Horace
Feb 15 2012, 07:21 PM
Aqua Letifer
Feb 15 2012, 07:08 PM
My point is that many of the labor laws we have on the books today exist because of the lobbying and hard work by labor unions. I really have no idea myself why you seem to think there's no use for them anymore.
These straw men are tedious. If you're unable give specific examples of these conditions we'd revert back to absent unions, it's fine. But don't mistake your responses to me for responses to my question.
I have no idea what you want I suppose.

I was very clear. I'm looking for some specific historical examples of the working conditions that led to unions, because I'm curious to compare them to current labor law to see if they're even a possibility anymore. This will allow me to either accept or discard one of the common justifications for unions one sees, the rhetorical/anecdotal one that implies that we'd revert back to those conditions without unions.

And again, even if that justification isn't valid, I wouldn't "outlaw" unions. My real issue with unions is when they contract with the government or when they negotiate with huge private companies and then get bailed out by taxpayers because they negotiated financially untenable terms.

Quote:
 
Do you want me to forecast for you how the world would change if we lost our unions? How can I cite specific examples of a hypothetical? I don't know what would happen if we dropped our unions, and neither do you or anyone else.

The best I can do is offer you up some examples of when unions have done some good, but why can't you do that yourself? That would be the easiest thing in the world to look up, like looking up why white is not black. Citations should not be necessary to acknowledge that unions have 1) improved the working conditions of many workers; 2) also done some very corrupt things and 3) have done much in between. Do you still want examples of these? If not, just what are you looking for?


Whether they've ever done some good has never been in question, nor is whether they can theoretically do some good currently.

I'm only exploring a certain popular justification for them and seeing if it holds up.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Quote:
 
I'm looking for some specific historical examples of the working conditions that led to unions...


That should be easy enough to look up, shouldn't it? I'm not trying to be a dick about this, but for one, I'm obviously not an expert on this subject, and two, this should be pretty easy information to come across. I know of individual cases where unions lobbied to get Christmas off for workers, Saturdays off and required companies to provide wet weather gear for employees doing their jobs outdoors, that sort of thing. I also know of a few cases where unions lobbied for law changes (regarding hotwork) and more OSHA regulations, state adoption of updates in the IFA etc. when working with companies wasn't successful. If you want to get really specific I suppose I could cite all that but there must be better examples available.

Quote:
 
And again, even if that justification isn't valid, I wouldn't "outlaw" unions. My real issue with unions is when they contract with the government or when they negotiate with huge private companies and then get bailed out by taxpayers because they negotiated financially untenable terms.


Well I don't disagree with that, but I also don't see them all as unnecessary either.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Feb 15 2012, 08:08 PM
Quote:
 
I'm looking for some specific historical examples of the working conditions that led to unions...


That should be easy enough to look up, shouldn't it?
Well it's not a point I've tried to advance.

If it was just a single point in this thread I wouldn't push the issue but it is a pretty widespread justification for unions, used to great rhetorical effect, to trot out circa 1920 factory conditions and say "see this is why", as if that's what we'd revert to without them.

Just not sure that point holds any water at all.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Okay. I don't think it would be as bad as that, but I do think the laws would weaken and degrade over time without that influence.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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