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Privatizing the Prisons; Yea or Nay?
Topic Started: Feb 14 2012, 08:25 AM (695 Views)
Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
I'm agin it.

Couple of reasons...

1. Private guys don't make dick. You don't pay, you don't attract the best employees. You don't attract good employees, you have problems in the prison. Contraband, fraternization, abuse, you name it, you get it. The Feds have the best prison guards, because they pay the best and demand a better employee.

2. Private contractors will low-ball an on-going service, in order to get their foot in the door. Once the government's system is demolished, rates start to change. When a few years have gone by, the government will find their prisons cost just as much to run...and they have a helluva lot less say in how things are done.

There are some things it makes sense for government to farm out. Public safety is not one of those functions.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Feb 14 2012, 07:30 PM
Mikhailoh
Feb 14 2012, 07:14 PM
That's pretty much what I said.
Actually, based on what you said...

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But..but.. unions are GOOD! It's corporations that are bad, right? 

Oh, wait....


Quote:
 
Unions are pretty well connected and they don't have to make a profit to have resources. Nice job you got there. Shame if something happened to it.


...it seems that you are of the general opinion that corporations are good, and unions are bad. ^_^
You justified unions based on what they were for back in the day. I would be interested in the specifics of those conditions and whether labor laws already protect workers from such conditions.

I just wonder whether most of the emotional support people feel for unions is based on situations that aren't even a legitimate possibility these days.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
No, Aqua, I thought I pretty clearly put corporations and unions on equal footing.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Horace
Feb 14 2012, 07:44 PM
You justified unions based on what they were for back in the day. I would be interested in the specifics of those conditions and whether labor laws already protect workers from such conditions.
More to the point I justified unions based on the need for a balance of power in any system or organization. Bad things start to happen when one group has unchecked influence over another. Therefore, unions were necessary back in the day because corporations held an unchecked influence over their workers that had negative consequences.

Quote:
 
I just wonder whether most of the emotional support people feel for unions is based on situations that aren't even a legitimate possibility these days.


I don't wonder that at all, because the population of America is over 300 million, and I'm certain scenarios still exist in which unions play a necessary role. (Where do you think those labor laws came from.) We've outright forefeited many of the rights unions fought so hard to establish, so yeah, maybe quite a few of us don't even deserve them anymore. But outside of America, I'd be willing to bet the Chinese factory workers would think that unions are a pretty good idea.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Mikhailoh
Feb 14 2012, 07:46 PM
No, Aqua, I thought I pretty clearly put corporations and unions on equal footing.
Okay, fair 'nuff. As do I.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Both only as good or as bad as the schmucks running them.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Feb 14 2012, 08:47 PM
Horace
Feb 14 2012, 07:44 PM
You justified unions based on what they were for back in the day. I would be interested in the specifics of those conditions and whether labor laws already protect workers from such conditions.
More to the point I justified unions based on the need for a balance of power in any system or organization. Bad things start to happen when one group has unchecked influence over another. Therefore, unions were necessary back in the day because corporations held an unchecked influence over their workers that had negative consequences.
That's fine, but the emotional power of that argument rests on the specifics of those situations. And if those specifics are already outlawed, it raises the question of what unions are for now.

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Quote:
 
I just wonder whether most of the emotional support people feel for unions is based on situations that aren't even a legitimate possibility these days.


I don't wonder that at all, because the population of America is over 300 million, and I'm certain scenarios still exist in which unions play a necessary role.


I don't care about unions that contract with private companies, workers are within their rights to gang up and collectively bargain. I do care about unions contracting with the government, due to the obvious conflicts of interest involved.

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We've outright forefeited many of the rights unions fought so hard to establish,


Like what?

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so yeah, maybe quite a few of us don't even deserve them anymore. But outside of America, I'd be willing to bet the Chinese factory workers would think that unions are a pretty good idea.


We're not talking about chinese sweatshops, not sure why you bring them up.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Quote:
 
Like what?


Like 40-hour work weeks and the right to live a private life outside of our jobs.

Quote:
 
We're not talking about chinese sweatshops, not sure why you bring them up.


Why not? You implied that those who support unions could be delusional and that they might not even have to exist anymore. I'm giving you an example of a group of people who would disagree with that.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Feb 14 2012, 09:13 PM
Quote:
 
Like what?


Like 40-hour work weeks and the right to live a private life outside of our jobs.
I guess you had some crap jobs, but at my several thousand employee company which is not extraordinary in any way I'm aware of, 40 hour work weeks are the rule.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
We're not talking about chinese sweatshops, not sure why you bring them up.


Why not? You implied that those who support unions could be delusional and that they might not even have to exist anymore. I'm giving you an example of a group of people who would disagree with that.


We're talking about american unions, and the thread is about a union contracting with the government, which is rife with horrible conflicts of interest.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Horace
Feb 14 2012, 09:15 PM
I guess you had some crap jobs, but at my several thousand employee company which is not extraordinary in any way I'm aware of, 40 hour work weeks are the rule.
I'm not talking about how much time you're physically in the office, I'm talking about how much time you actually spend working each week. If you truly do leave work at work then you're part of a dwindling trend.

And yeah I had some seriously crap jobs. The crappiest were the ones in which I was in an office for 40 hours a week. The best ones were when I worked twice that.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Feb 14 2012, 09:29 PM
Horace
Feb 14 2012, 09:15 PM
I guess you had some crap jobs, but at my several thousand employee company which is not extraordinary in any way I'm aware of, 40 hour work weeks are the rule.
I'm not talking about how much time you're physically in the office, I'm talking about how much time you actually spend working each week. If you truly do leave work at work then you're part of a dwindling trend.
You say so. :shrug:

Quote:
 
And yeah I had some seriously crap jobs. The crappiest were the ones in which I was in an office for 40 hours a week.


Then what are you complaining about again?
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Horace
Feb 14 2012, 09:45 PM
You say so. :shrug:
Yeah, I do. What's true for you is not what's true for a great many people.

Quote:
 
Then what are you complaining about again?


You don't seem to be following along. All I'm claiming is that unions are still necessary in some situations. If you want to call that a complaint I suppose you're welcome to think so, but I don't think it holds up very well.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Feb 14 2012, 11:28 PM
Horace
Feb 14 2012, 09:45 PM
You say so. :shrug:
Yeah, I do. What's true for you is not what's true for a great many people.
You say so.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
Then what are you complaining about again?


You don't seem to be following along.


There's nothing to follow. I opened with a question about specific scenarios unions protect against, and it was an honest question. I recognize the pat justification for unions, I've seen it a million times. Something about how america was a long time ago.

It occurred to me that labor laws might correct most of those horror stories. I asked the question because I'm curious if the emotional impact of those justifications was based on anything, from our current social/legal context.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
I too wonder about the ongoing usefulness of unions, given statutory law that has supplied a need in response to the once very necessary demands for labor reform. However, the unbridled avarice of the darkened soul is a continuing reality.

I am especially against public sector/ civil service unions, who have NO concern for the public good or any legitimate grievance for their "fair share of profits" but rather can only be self serving in looting the public fund.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Horace
Feb 14 2012, 11:41 PM
Aqua Letifer
Feb 14 2012, 11:28 PM
Horace
Feb 14 2012, 09:45 PM
You say so. :shrug:
Yeah, I do. What's true for you is not what's true for a great many people.
You say so.
I and quite a few others. The crowning achievement of the labor movement in the 20s was to get a 40-hour work week (down from 50) and to get Saturdays off. As soon as they achieved this goal, a great deal many advertizing campaigns began, designed to entice people to work more hours so that they could purchase more crap. Isn't it great owning all this new stuff? That's why we've all gotta work so hard, to afford all this awesome stuff so that we can be happy! We all fell for it big time, didn't we.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
You don't seem to be following along.


There's nothing to follow. I opened with a question about specific scenarios unions protect against, and it was an honest question. I recognize the pat justification for unions, I've seen it a million times. Something about how america was a long time ago.

It occurred to me that labor laws might correct most of those horror stories. I asked the question because I'm curious if the emotional impact of those justifications was based on anything, from our current social/legal context.


Then I refer you to my previous question and ask you where you think those labor laws came from in the first place.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Horace
 
I don't care about unions that contract with private companies, workers are within their rights to gang up and collectively bargain. I do care about unions contracting with the government, due to the obvious conflicts of interest involved.
Do you see conflict of interest where unions collectively bargain with private sector corporations where the unions or its members sit on the board of directors and/or hold shares (i.e., have corporate governance, ownership, and voting interests)? How's that different from unions bargaining with the government?

ivorythumper
 
I too wonder about the ongoing usefulness of unions, given statutory law that has supplied a need in response to the once very necessary demands for labor reform.
Just because the laws are there doesn't mean people are going to stop lobbying to change/repeal them. Big corporations and the Chamber of Commerce lobby hard every day to change the laws to their advantage, hence the continuing need for unions to exist and counteract the lobbying forces of corporations. Let me know what you think.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Axtremus
Feb 15 2012, 04:42 AM
ivorythumper
 
I too wonder about the ongoing usefulness of unions, given statutory law that has supplied a need in response to the once very necessary demands for labor reform.
Just because the laws are there doesn't mean people are going to stop lobbying to change/repeal them. Big corporations and the Chamber of Commerce lobby hard every day to change the laws to their advantage, hence the continuing need for unions to exist and counteract the lobbying forces of corporations. Let me know what you think.
I already did let you know what I think. : "However, the unbridled avarice of the darkened soul is a continuing reality. "
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Unions are a complete waste of time, right up to the point where you find that it's just you against the machine and you really wish you were in one.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
AL: Just to give my $.02 to support what Horace was saying, I think the number of people who have to work more than 40 hours a week is small.
The last decade or so has seen a huge increase of the "work/life balance" within corporate culture. The only people I know who work 70 hour weeks (or are expected to) choose to, and make 60% more than I do (for doing the same job).
It's not the norm though, as most startups and larger outfits move toward improving the work/life balance. If they are the sort of shop that has lots of deadlines and require long hours heading up to a product rollout, they compensate with more time off after the product launch, or additional employee perks for the hours they're there at the office (beer, video games, fully stocked break rooms with lots of food and drinks, etc.).
Nobody I know is forced to work more hours than they want - many choose to in order to make more money, or to work for a fresh start-up where they can potentially own part of the company.
They still have the right to a 40 hour work week.

Most companies in fact, stipulate that employees can only work 40 hours a week, and that they will pay overtime if it's approved by a supervisor. More often than not, employees simply choose to take their work home and not have their managers approve it for overtime. This is the fault of many employees who let ambition get in the way of wise career development and happy work/life balance.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Quote:
 
 Just to give my $.02 to support what Horace was saying, I think the number of people who have to work more than 40 hours a week is small


Number's rising here I believe, and since Australia gets a lot of its bad habits influence from the U.S I'd assume the trend is the same back home.

I've seen many job listings, both here and back home, that warn they don't want any clock-watchers working for them, or something to that effect. 

And I noticed neither of you contended the privacy issue.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
I didn't read the privacy issue.
I responded to the issue that I had some personal experience with as a manager.

They may very well get that trait from the U.S. - and they may very well be a decade behind as well.

The reality is, salaries are based on 40 hour work weeks, and many employers will pay overtime if it's approved.
Most employees simply never take responsibility to get that extra dough, and instead insist on working extra hours from home for free under the possibly misguided notion that it improves their chance at a raise, or fast-track promotion within the company.

It may - as it increases their performance - but it's not as though they're required to work 70 hours a week on a 40 hour work week salary.

Regardless - the union is pointless, as the person doesn't have to work there, and can easily choose to work at one of the majority of places that require a 40 hour work week.
Given how much activity I see on this forum throughout the day, and on facebook, I'm not likely to believe that employees are chaining people to their desks and requiring more of them than they were 20 years ago. Quite to the contrary, people do a lot less work in 8 hours, which is why they go home and do more of it.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Quote:
 
The reality is, salaries are based on 40 hour work weeks, and many employers will pay overtime if it's approved.
Most employees simply never take responsibility to get that extra dough, and instead insist on working extra hours from home for free under the possibly misguided notion that it improves their chance at a raise, or fast-track promotion within the company.

It may - as it increases their performance - but it's not as though they're required to work 70 hours a week on a 40 hour work week salary.


Well you're entering grey territory there. For one, that's exactly what I mean about forfeiting our rights as workers. It doesn't much matter that the official policy is 40-hour work weeks if, for whatever the reason, many workers feel obliged to do more than that.

For two, though the reason for forfeiting worker's rights doesn't change the fact that they are indeed forfeited, let's entertain what you said for a moment: if many folks work overtime without pay under the assumption that their hard work will put them on the fast track, what of the workers who only work 40 hour weeks? What of the ones who, due to family obligations actual interests outside of work whatever reason always punch out at 5? Don't you think that would look bad to managers? I mean, have you seen Office Space? Do you know how many job adverts there are that request applicants who are "self-motivated," "very hard-working," "strictly adhere to deadlines" and "can keep up with a fast-paced environment"? You can't tell me that only fulfilling the minimum time requirements is going to make you look good in the eyes of your employer. 

So basically we have a situation where sure, nobody's forcing you to put in that extra effort, but sometimes it's necessary depending on the project, it looks bad if you don't and hey, it might even get you that promotion or raise.

I'm saying if you're working more than 40 hours a week it doesn't matter what the reasons are, you're working more than 40 hours a week, aren't you.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Axtremus
Feb 15 2012, 04:42 AM
Horace
 
I don't care about unions that contract with private companies, workers are within their rights to gang up and collectively bargain. I do care about unions contracting with the government, due to the obvious conflicts of interest involved.
Do you see conflict of interest where unions collectively bargain with private sector corporations where the unions or its members sit on the board of directors and/or hold shares (i.e., have corporate governance, ownership, and voting interests)? How's that different from unions bargaining with the government?
No, I wouldn't care. If a company wants to let union members onto their board then so be it. If it's to their disadvantage, then they suck and they'll go out of business, but no skin off my back.

Unless of course tax dollars are then used to prop up the company, or to fund the pensions negotiated by the union with that private company. If a company goes out of business or a pension fund goes insolvent, tough, taxpayers didn't agree to the union contract and they shouldn't be expected to guarantee it.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
I'm not a big union guy, though I've been in an AFL-CIO union a couple of times, down through the years.

I think they are at their best, when they can boast about their apprentice programs and businesses know they may pay more for union labor, but will receive a superior product.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Feb 15 2012, 12:59 AM
Horace
Feb 14 2012, 11:41 PM
It occurred to me that labor laws might correct most of those horror stories. I asked the question because I'm curious if the emotional impact of those justifications was based on anything, from our current social/legal context.


Then I refer you to my previous question and ask you where you think those labor laws came from in the first place.
I haven't claimed that no labor problems have ever existed, Aqua. Not sure why you want me to answer that question.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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