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Where's the Catholic Church must cover contraception and abortion thread?
Topic Started: Feb 7 2012, 05:07 PM (1,510 Views)
Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
John D'Oh
Feb 8 2012, 07:43 PM
Jolly
Feb 8 2012, 07:08 PM
The rest of you peckerheads can die spitting blood in the streets.
I see you're channeling Jesus, again.
The Bible says those that shall not work, shall not eat.

While many can't help the financial predicament they may be in, the fact is we have a ton of drones in this country. I doubt very seriously you will not find charity care in a religious hospital in this country.

But...

You will find that care doled out on a case-by-case basis, most likely vetted by a committee with a finite number of dollars to spend. I suspect that committee will feel a lot more sympathy for a hard-working, low paid ant, than for a sloth-like grasshopper.

And if you don't like that side of the street, tell the Muslims to start building hospitals in this country and let's see what rules they set up for providing for the indigent.

Maybe they'll do a better job.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
A sloth-like grasshopper would be a bloody funny looking creature. I fear you may have become metaphorically entangled.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
John D'Oh
Feb 9 2012, 05:36 PM
A sloth-like grasshopper would be a bloody funny looking creature. I fear you may have become metaphorically entangled.
Educate thyself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloth_(deadly_sin)
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Feb 9 2012, 05:36 PM
A sloth-like grasshopper would be a bloody funny looking creature. I fear you may have become metaphorically entangled.
oh deer, I just can't bear another pun thread.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Jolly
Feb 9 2012, 05:39 PM
John D'Oh
Feb 9 2012, 05:36 PM
A sloth-like grasshopper would be a bloody funny looking creature. I fear you may have become metaphorically entangled.
Educate thyself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloth_(deadly_sin)
Yes, but what the heck's that got to do with grasshoppers?

Posted Image
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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somebody else's sock
Middle Aged Carp
http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/10/politics/contraception-controversy/index.html
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Well, if that's their attitude, they should rescind this recent decision, too:

Are Clergy Public Servants? Gov't Says NO!
Posted: 02/ 9/2012 11:20 am

Are clergy and teachers of religious faith/thought public servants? Is their work on par with that of others who work for 501c3 non-for-profit groups and for government agencies? It used to be, but as of Jan. 31 the federal government has changed its mind about that.

Although not known to most people, the federal government maintains a program called Public Service Loan Forgiveness. According to that program, after 10 years of public service work, any remaining federal student loans remaining for that worker would be forgiven. But what counts as public service?

Until the end of January, the government definition was clear and inclusive. It read as follows:

Qualifying employment is any employment with a federal, state, or local government agency, entity, or organization or a non-profit organization that has been designated as tax-exempt by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code (IRC). The type or nature of employment with the organization does not matter for PSLF purposes. Additionally, the type of services that these public service organizations provide does not matter for PSLF purposes.

Now, though, the rules have changed. At the end of the description of who qualifies for this program, a new paragraph appears and it's striking not only in that it re-defines things, but that it does so in a way that seems purposefully disingenuous.

Generally, the type or nature of employment with the organization does not matter for PSLF purposes. However, if you work for a non-profit organization, your employment will not qualify for PSLF if your job duties are related to religious instruction, worship services, or any form of proselytizing.

So after telling us that pretty much everything qualifies, even going out of its way to highlight that neither the type of work nor nature of the organizations matters, the government slips in the fact that if faith or worship are part of your work, you don't qualify. What?!

Is faith really so threatening that it merits this singular exception? Well, perhaps it does. The careful separation of church and state is not simply a nice idea. It is a crucial part of our democracy, and a commitment based on the historic abuse of church-state entanglement. But as framed, this policy puts all of the weight of that question on those who can least afford to shoulder the burden -- students carrying loans.

If the government wants to re-visit making loans to those who study for religious careers, fine. I would oppose any change there, but I get it. Likewise, if the government wanted to revisit the tax-exempt status of religious institutions, I would get that as well. I would also oppose that, but I would understand it. But taking this out on those who can least afford it is simply wrong.

All that said, I also believe, especially given the otherwise broad definition of public service according to this law, that clergy and religious teachers should be considered public servants. On balance, there is no doubt about the public value created by faith and faith teaching in America.

While religion can be abused in the most horrendous ways, it remains a source of enormous social good and unprecedented public service. The new regulation seems to uphold only one of those truths, and in doing so, is actually taking a position on faith (dare is say, "establishing" one?) -- a hostile one.

While church-separation is a wise and necessary policy, separation is not about discrimination against, or hostility toward, religion. The law, as newly reformulated is clumsy at best, insensitive for certain, and may even be illegally hostile to religion. This one needs to change.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
So you don't get your ministry training student loans forgiven?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
According to a segment that played on NPR this morning, 98% of Roman Catholics use artificial contraception of some form at some point in their lives.

It's no wonder we laugh at the virtuous.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
IT: Beginning this year, the forgiveness for those who had made timely payments for 10 years disappears for clergy - they've been stripped out of the program. It remains in place for anyone who has student debt and works in public service/government, or for a secular 501(3)c nonprofit.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Apparently, Obama is rolling out an attempted compromise:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16985757

Quote:
 
Under the new plan put forward by the White House health insurance companies, rather than the employer, will be required to offer contraception directly to employees of religious-linked institutions if requested.

The institutions - such as universities or hospitals - would not be required to subsidise the cost of offering birth control to their employees, nor would they be asked to refer them to organisations that provide it.

Women could obtain contraceptives directly from their insurance provider, free of charge, the White House said.

The adjustment to the policy "accommodates religious liberty while protecting the health of women", the White House added.

What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
I can see loan forgiveness for people who pursue a military or possibly law enforcement career, but no one else in the civil service. Not-for-profits, charities and clergy definitely not.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Renauda
Feb 10 2012, 10:20 AM
I can see loan forgiveness for people who pursue a military or possibly law enforcement career, but no one else in the civil service. Not-for-profits, charities and clergy definitely not.
The clergy should pay extra.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Dewey
Feb 10 2012, 10:00 AM
IT: Beginning this year, the forgiveness for those who had made timely payments for 10 years disappears for clergy - they've been stripped out of the program. It remains in place for anyone who has student debt and works in public service/government, or for a secular 501(3)c nonprofit.
So hospital chaplaincy for a secular nonprofit qualifies?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
^_^

"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Feb 10 2012, 10:00 AM
According to a segment that played on NPR this morning, 98% of Roman Catholics use artificial contraception of some form at some point in their lives.

It's no wonder we laugh at the virtuous.
Since when has anyone claimed Catholics were virtuous? If they were they wouldn't have a system of confession and reconciliation to help them overcome their vices.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Feb 10 2012, 10:23 AM
... a system of confession and reconciliation to help them overcome their vices.
Say, how is it working out so far?
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
ivorythumper
Feb 10 2012, 10:23 AM
John D'Oh
Feb 10 2012, 10:00 AM
According to a segment that played on NPR this morning, 98% of Roman Catholics use artificial contraception of some form at some point in their lives.

It's no wonder we laugh at the virtuous.
Since when has anyone claimed Catholics were virtuous? If they were they wouldn't have a system of confession and reconciliation to help them overcome their vices.
2% of them are virtuous.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Feb 10 2012, 10:22 AM
Dewey
Feb 10 2012, 10:00 AM
IT: Beginning this year, the forgiveness for those who had made timely payments for 10 years disappears for clergy - they've been stripped out of the program. It remains in place for anyone who has student debt and works in public service/government, or for a secular 501(3)c nonprofit.
So hospital chaplaincy for a secular nonprofit qualifies?
No. Realize that chaplains, even those working for a secular nonprofit healthcare company, are providing a "religious service" which would exclude them, even if the parent corporation were not a "religious institution." (also, realize that in my particular case, I am not an employee of the non-profit hospitals I work at - I'm an independent contractor)

I'm not complaining that the clergy were taken out of the program. On the contrary, I think it was unconstitutional for them to have been included to begin with (taking it further, I don't think the program should exist at all, but that's a separate issue). Don't misunderstand; if we were included, I'd have been quite happy to make use of the forgiveness when the time came. But I've known about this change coming for quite some time now, and I didn't throw a fit about it, claiming that the government was treating me, or religion, unfairly.

However, if the government is going to allow treating nonprofit corporations organized as being non-churches are going to be granted the same First Amendment rights as churches, then the reverse is also true: they shouldn't "discriminate" against people who are providing the same sorts of services as those in many secular nonprofits and the public sector, solely because they happen to be working for a church.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Axtremus
Feb 10 2012, 10:25 AM
ivorythumper
Feb 10 2012, 10:23 AM
... a system of confession and reconciliation to help them overcome their vices.
Say, how is it working out so far?
Wonderfully well. Srsly, you should try it.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
What if I he doesn't want to overcome myhis vices?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
ivorythumper
Feb 10 2012, 10:22 AM
Dewey
Feb 10 2012, 10:00 AM
IT: Beginning this year, the forgiveness for those who had made timely payments for 10 years disappears for clergy - they've been stripped out of the program. It remains in place for anyone who has student debt and works in public service/government, or for a secular 501(3)c nonprofit.
So hospital chaplaincy for a secular nonprofit qualifies?
The good news is with that mug of his he doesn't need birth control.


(oooooh, snap! :D )
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Copper
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Shortstop
John D'Oh
Feb 10 2012, 10:00 AM

It's no wonder we laugh at the virtuous.

At least they try.

Quote:
 
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Copper
Feb 10 2012, 11:26 AM
Quote:
 
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

That sounds like a Newt Gingrich press release: 'Newt buys a box of donuts'
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Gingrich hell, it sounds like a precis of the life of Churchill.
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