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Where's the Catholic Church must cover contraception and abortion thread?
Topic Started: Feb 7 2012, 05:07 PM (1,511 Views)
Copper
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Shortstop
Axtremus
Feb 8 2012, 01:57 PM
ivorythumper
Feb 8 2012, 12:33 PM
... ignorantly and foolishly.

The guy doesn't even grasp the very simple fact that the government is not forcing the Church to serve birth control to any one.

Exactly which facts you ignorantly and foolishly twisting to allow you to believe that?
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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somebody else's sock
Middle Aged Carp
More food for thought: http://commonwealmagazine.org/bad-decision
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Copper
Feb 8 2012, 02:06 PM
Axtremus
Feb 8 2012, 01:57 PM
ivorythumper
Feb 8 2012, 12:33 PM
... ignorantly and foolishly.

The guy doesn't even grasp the very simple fact that the government is not forcing the Church to serve birth control to any one.

Exactly which facts you ignorantly and foolishly twisting to allow you to believe that?
No twisting of anything at all. I merely stated facts.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Axtremus
Feb 8 2012, 02:11 PM
Copper
Feb 8 2012, 02:06 PM
Axtremus
Feb 8 2012, 01:57 PM
ivorythumper
Feb 8 2012, 12:33 PM
... ignorantly and foolishly.

The guy doesn't even grasp the very simple fact that the government is not forcing the Church to serve birth control to any one.

Exactly which facts you ignorantly and foolishly twisting to allow you to believe that?
No twisting of anything at all. I merely stated facts.
The government is forcing Catholics who are employers to provide funding for contraception and abortion. That is a violation of the 1st amendment since it is "prohibiting the free exercise thereof", given that the Catholic Church has a positive religious injunction against contraception and abortion.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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apple
one of the angels
maybe Ivory would know.. I thought the Church was not supposed to participate in political posturing, to not support candidates or positions. I suppose this somehow counts as acceptable.

i wonder how much they are actually 'paying' - like 3 %. 1%?

i don't want to pay for a former smoker's lung disease therapy but the way insurance is set up my pool does. Actually - I don't care.. i really don't like it when the church gets into politics. I play sometimes at an ultra beautiful, ultra conservative (think 8 altar boys at once at a Sunday Mass, ties, lots of Latin, etc.)... the pastor at this church has his own following and rightly so, he is unusually holy and such. He's 90 years old and always berates parishioners for supporting something like a Mormon or other nonCatholic... and has glib ways of slipping this into the sermons..

i guess you call that a bully pulpit?

I do think it perfectly admissable that congregations of any type of people or thought should share groupthink thought info tho.....

anyhoo.. back to the discussion. My opinion is not worth that much on this.
it behooves me to behold
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Actually, Apple, I think the Church has a rightful duty to speak to political issues, since political issues are invariably moral issues. The notion that it should be nonpartisan is wise -- the Church should not ally itself with any candidates or political parties or political systems since none of these are adequate to the Gospel -- but the Church should always be free to address vigorously the ideas in the public forum.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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apple
one of the angels
there is no decree or anything then? tho it irritates me, i think it should be allowed.
it behooves me to behold
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somebody else's sock
Middle Aged Carp
So there are a bunch of states that already require contraceptives to be covered under insurance, with some of them allowing exemptions for religious organizations.

In Arizona, for instance, the law HB 2234 requires the following (It has been in place since 2002):

Quote:
 
ANY CONTRACT BETWEEN A CORPORATION AND ITS SUBSCRIBERS IS SUBJECT
39 TO THE FOLLOWING:
40 1. IF THE CONTRACT PROVIDES COVERAGE FOR PRESCRIPTION DRUGS, THE
41 CONTRACT SHALL PROVIDE COVERAGE FOR ANY PRESCRIBED DRUG OR DEVICE THAT IS
42 APPROVED BY THE UNITED STATES FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION FOR USE AS A
43 CONTRACEPTIVE. A CORPORATION MAY USE A DRUG FORMULARY, MULTITIERED DRUG
44 FORMULARY OR LIST BUT THAT FORMULARY OR LIST SHALL INCLUDE ORAL, IMPLANT AND
45 INJECTABLE CONTRACEPTIVE DRUGS, INTRAUTERINE DEVICES AND PRESCRIPTION BARRIERMETHODS IF THE CORPORATION DOES NOT IMPOSE DEDUCTIBLES, COINSURANCE,
2 COPAYMENTS OR OTHER COST CONTAINMENT MEASURES FOR CONTRACEPTIVE DRUGS THAT
3 ARE GREATER THAN THE DEDUCTIBLES, COINSURANCE, COPAYMENTS OR OTHER COST
4 CONTAINMENT MEASURES FOR OTHER DRUGS ON THE SAME LEVEL OF THE FORMULARY OR
5 LIST.


And religious employers are exempted:

Quote:
 
NOTWITHSTANDING SUBSECTION Y OF THIS SECTION, A RELIGIOUS EMPLOYER
16 WHOSE RELIGIOUS TENETS PROHIBIT THE USE OF PRESCRIBED CONTRACEPTIVE METHODS
17 MAY REQUIRE THAT THE CORPORATION PROVIDE A CONTRACT WITHOUT COVERAGE FOR ALL
18 FEDERAL FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION APPROVED CONTRACEPTIVE METHODS. A
19 RELIGIOUS EMPLOYER SHALL SUBMIT A WRITTEN AFFIDAVIT TO THE CORPORATION
20 STATING THAT IT IS A RELIGIOUS EMPLOYER. ON RECEIPT OF THE AFFIDAVIT, THE
21 CORPORATION SHALL ISSUE TO THE RELIGIOUS EMPLOYER A CONTRACT THAT EXCLUDES
22 COVERAGE OF PRESCRIPTION CONTRACEPTIVE METHODS. THE CORPORATION SHALL RETAIN
23 THE AFFIDAVIT FOR THE DURATION OF THE CONTRACT AND ANY RENEWALS OF THE
24 CONTRACT. BEFORE ENROLLMENT IN THE PLAN, EVERY RELIGIOUS EMPLOYER THAT
25 INVOKES THIS EXEMPTION SHALL PROVIDE PROSPECTIVE SUBSCRIBERS WRITTEN NOTICE
26 THAT THE RELIGIOUS EMPLOYER REFUSES TO COVER ALL FEDERAL FOOD AND DRUG
27 ADMINISTRATION APPROVED CONTRACEPTIVE METHODS FOR RELIGIOUS REASONS.


And a religious employer is defined as:

Quote:
 
3. SUBSECTION M OF THIS SECTION, "RELIGIOUS EMPLOYER" MEANS AN ENTITY
15 FOR WHICH ALL OF THE FOLLOWING APPLY:
16 (a) THE ENTITY PRIMARILY EMPLOYS PERSONS WHO SHARE THE RELIGIOUS
17 TENETS OF THE ENTITY.
18 (b) THE ENTITY SERVES PRIMARILY PERSONS WHO SHARE THE RELIGIOUS TENETS
19 OF THE ENTITY.
20 (c) THE ENTITY IS A NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION AS DESCRIBED IN SECTION
21 6033(a)(2)(A)i OR iii OF THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE OF 1986, AS AMENDED.


Not picking on you IT, but because you live in a state where what seems to be a very similar law is already in place, I'd like to ask: What was the reaction in AZ when those laws were enacted? Did the Church object to the law at that time?

It doesn't seem as if Catholic hospitals qualify for the exemption. I don't think they don't meet requirement b) The entity serves primarily persons who share the religious tenets of the entity.

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm just wondering whether this type of law is already in place in a lot of states, and how people and the Church reacted as it was enacted in the individual states.
Edited by somebody else's sock, Feb 8 2012, 05:08 PM.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
I did not know that was in the AZ revised statute, or what was the political reaction at the time since I was living in California then.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Copper
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Shortstop

That law seems to be a bit different than some of the argument on the first page.

That sounds like the church could simply drop prescription coverage. They aren't forced to cover anything. A minor point maybe, but it is different from what has been said earlier in the tread.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
The solution is easy.

Quit taking the government's money (i.e. Medicaid and Medicare) and downsize the religious affiliated hospitals. You go there, you pay cash or have private insurance. The church can decide how much charity care it can afford to provide.

The rest of you peckerheads can die spitting blood in the streets.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Feb 8 2012, 11:16 AM
For that matter, i suspect we already fund contraception including RU486 through medicaid (though i dont know that for sure)

You ask, RU486?
I'm not 486 but I've always been 469! :thumb:
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Jolly
Feb 8 2012, 07:08 PM
The rest of you peckerheads can die spitting blood in the streets.
I see you're channeling Jesus, again.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
John D'Oh
Feb 8 2012, 07:43 PM
Jolly
Feb 8 2012, 07:08 PM
The rest of you peckerheads can die spitting blood in the streets.
I see you're channeling Jesus, again.
:lol2:
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
JBryan
Feb 8 2012, 12:20 PM
Wait a minute. We aren't talking about government funding here. We are talking about forcing a religious institution to buy coverage for these things.
You're right - I was framing the point in terms of government regulations that apply strings to being eligible for government funding in the form of Medicare/Medicaid or similar reimbursement for services rendered. If, however, the law is more broad than tying strings to funding, and simply says that if they're going to provide health care insurance for employees, it must cover X, or the chairman of the board will be thrown in jail, the exact same principle applies. If the organization has established itself legally as being "not a church/religious institution," then it can't fall back on claims that it actually *is* a church/religious institution in order to gain First Amendment religious protections from government intrusion that it would like, without accepting all the other implications of such a decision. It's nothing more than a cost-to-benefit analysis, only in the case of a church, the "benefit" isn't really money, it's achieving the mission - or what is called, at least in my tradition, the "great ends" - of the church.

We are not talking about forcing a religious institution to buy anything. We are talking about forcing a non-religious institution, which happens to have been established by a religious institution and whose directors are likely also affiliated with that religious institution, to abide by the same rules as other similar organizations. There's a big difference there.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
They are also forcing people who religious convictions about certain things to support things that are contrary to their religious practices.


Posted Image
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
ivorythumper
Feb 8 2012, 10:46 PM
They are also forcing people who religious convictions about certain things to support things that are contrary to their religious practices.
I still don't see how that's different from American pacificists being forced to pay for the US military as part of their tax burden.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Feb 9 2012, 04:56 AM
ivorythumper
Feb 8 2012, 10:46 PM
They are also forcing people who religious convictions about certain things to support things that are contrary to their religious practices.
I still don't see how that's different from American pacificists being forced to pay for the US military as part of their tax burden.
A significant difference in that tax money goes into the general fund. The HHS mandate does not allow for employers to find insurance programs that meet their ethical and moral requirements.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Copper
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Shortstop
ivorythumper
Feb 9 2012, 08:05 AM

The HHS mandate does not allow for employers to find insurance programs that meet their ethical and moral requirements.

You might add practical requirements to that list.

I know there are a number of people here that enjoy the idea that some Catholics aren't "good" Catholics.

But the "good" ones are now being forced to accept something they don't want or need - insurance payments for contraception and abortion.

It's not only the employer who is paying, but also the insured.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
So young people should be able to opt out of Alzheimers treatments? Post-menopausal women should be able to opt out of coverage for giving birth, as well as contraception and abortion? Non-smokers should be able to pay less, as should people who aren't fat, since they're propping up their gargantuan colleagues?

I could go on.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Copper
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Shortstop
John D'Oh
Feb 9 2012, 09:45 AM
So young people should be able to opt out of Alzheimers treatments? Post-menopausal women should be able to opt out of coverage for giving birth, as well as contraception and abortion? Non-smokers should be able to pay less, as should people who aren't fat, since they're propping up their gargantuan colleagues?

I could go on.

Yes you probably could.

And in many cases people can opt out of those coverages if they want.

Non-smokers can pay less for health insurance, and home, life and auto insurance.

I could go on.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Nonsmokers pay lower insurance premiums because it's cheaper to insure them, but even their lower rate is calculated to pay the healthcare costs of smoking plan participants. The nonsmokers aren't paying less because they aren't subsidizing the smokers.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
In the Good Old Days the only people who went to heaven were the Good Catholics, so they didn't even need bloody health insurance. The rest of us hell-bound mortals were the ones that really wanted to put off that terrible, hot moment.

See what modern thinking has wrought!
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
You mock the virtuous, then profess shock when they charge you $500.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
:lol:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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