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Where's the Catholic Church must cover contraception and abortion thread?
Topic Started: Feb 7 2012, 05:07 PM (1,512 Views)
KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
I'm saying he's got a the wrong point.

You didn't say he had the wrong point - or at least it wasn't clear.
It came across as though you thought he missed something, which I don't think he has.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Try "Constitutional Republic with Democratically Elected Representatives."
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
*I* don't need to try anything - I already said it is a Constitutional Republic. :)
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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somebody else's sock
Middle Aged Carp
JBryan
Feb 8 2012, 08:38 AM
Great, when the Catholic Church becomes a democracy that might mean something.
When I saw the statistics (58% of American Catholics saying that health care plans should be required to provide contraception and 98% of Catholic women have used birth control) , I wasn't thinking in terms of the Church being a democracy, but whether this issue is likely to turn Catholic voters against Obama.

I'm pretty sure he's lost the bishop vote, not so sure about the rest of their flock.


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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I was really getting interested there for a moment in whether the US was in fact a democracy or a constitutional republic, and then you started talking about the bloody church again.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
somebody else's sock
Feb 8 2012, 10:44 AM
JBryan
Feb 8 2012, 08:38 AM
Great, when the Catholic Church becomes a democracy that might mean something.
When I saw the statistics (58% of American Catholics saying that health care plans should be required to provide contraception and 98% of Catholic women have used birth control) , I wasn't thinking in terms of the Church being a democracy, but whether this issue is likely to turn Catholic voters against Obama.

I'm pretty sure he's lost the bishop vote, not so sure about the rest of their flock.


I really wasn't looking at how many votes this would lose Obama but just the shear blunt force government assault on religious liberty so I can see where the disconnect occured. I really never thought this would be a ballot box issue at any stage.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Quakers pay taxes to finance wars.

Not sure where they get this idea that you can somehow prevent yourself from indirectly paying for something you disagree with. Fvcking whiners.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
I agree jon - I mean, how does every Christian Scientist feel about paying for my transplant?!
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Another good example.

For that matter, i suspect we already fund contraception including RU486 through medicaid (though i dont know that for sure)
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Quakers aren't forced to buy guns.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
If they're really concerned about indirectly funding stuff you abhor, maybe they should think about the lay catholics that have funded the sheltering of rapists all these years.

In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
JBryan
Feb 8 2012, 11:19 AM
Quakers aren't forced to buy guns.
Catholics aren't forced to buy condoms or have abortions.

What's the government subsidy for pork farmers in this country?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
KlavierBauer
Feb 8 2012, 11:14 AM
I agree jon - I mean, how does every Christian Scientist feel about paying for my transplant?!
Hey, we're all upset about that.

:tongue:
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
JBryan
Feb 8 2012, 11:19 AM
Quakers aren't forced to buy guns.
Not directly, and neither are catholics forced to buy birth control.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
No, they are forced to buy insurance coverage that includes birth control. That is still a significant degree of separation form using your tax dollars for things you object to. We all have those.

I am not a particularly religious person and my convictions don't really come into play on this issue but I think it is an abuse by government and should be stopped on that basis alone.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
A religious hospital, or orphanage, or similar charitable organization is not the church. Period. It is specifically established as separate from the particular church specifically to *not* be part of a religious institution as recognized by the First Amendment, in order to gain various legal benefits. This is one of the trade-offs for the decision to make a separate non-church entity, and many, many religious organizations have accepted that trade-off for years. If any church doesn't want to abide by that trade-off, they are more than welcome to operate those organizations under the church itself, and accept the corresponding rights and limitations that come with that model. Either the organization is the church, or it is not the church, but it can't simply decide that it is, and is not, as is to their own benefit at the moment.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Makes sense, Dewey.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
If you read the actual ruling by HHS that defines what a religious institution is and who would be exempt it is clear that it is defined so narrowly that a church may not even qualify.

However, I am offended by this sort of imposition on a religious institution whether they are legally outside the confines of their church for legal reasons or whatever. It is bullying and forcing people to betray their religious convictions. I don't really have a dog in this fight but can see where the government may eventually come along and shove something down my throat for public health or whatever reasons. People should not be so complacent simply because it is those wanker Catholics.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
JB, I understand the frustration. It's particularly ironic here, in that it was the Christian Church which invented the entire modern concept of a hospital.

If HHS' regulations are so strict that no church would ever qualify for funding, then the regulations are correct, and consistent with the Constitution - no church ever *should* qualify for public funding. While it might sound good at the moment, when those hospitals, etc. are being run by religious organizations we generally *like*, it would be a very different story the minute Hezbollah General Hospital opened and began receiving public funds. We have a non-establishment clause for good reason. And the fact is, it isn't just those wanker Catholics. It's those wanker Methodists, and Presbyterians, and Lutherans, and others who established healthcare and other charitable organizations, and who have accepted the benefits and limitations of their chosen structure. From a personal standpoint, if my church decided to open a clinic, or an orphanage, or something similar, we would decide how to legally structure it, given all those benefits and limitations, and choose the option that we felt was overall the best way to achieve our perceived mission. But under no circumstances would I expect, or even consider ethical, receiving public funds for any operation that was actually being run by the church itself. To me, that would be an unfair and unconstitutional funding of my religion by taxpayers who have no desire to subsidize my particular tradition or religion.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Wait a minute. We aren't talking about government funding here. We are talking about forcing a religious institution to buy coverage for these things.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Kincaid
Feb 8 2012, 11:21 AM
KlavierBauer
Feb 8 2012, 11:14 AM
I agree jon - I mean, how does every Christian Scientist feel about paying for my transplant?!
Hey, we're all upset about that.

:tongue:
I know - that's why I had two.

And a heart surgery.

You're welcome.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Francis Beckwith speaks...
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Copper
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Shortstop
JBryan
Feb 8 2012, 11:19 AM
Quakers aren't forced to buy guns.

It's more like the NAACP isn't forced to provide membership in White's Only private clubs.

Although maybe they should be, White's Only private clubs are after all legal and some people like them.

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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somebody else's sock
Middle Aged Carp
State by state: http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/health/insurance-coverage-for-contraception-state-laws.aspx
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Feb 8 2012, 12:33 PM
... ignorantly and foolishly.

The guy doesn't even grasp the very simple fact that the government is not forcing the Church to serve birth control to any one.
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