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| Proposition 8 ruled "unconstitutional"; ...sets up Supreme Court battle | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 7 2012, 10:09 AM (2,432 Views) | |
| ivorythumper | Feb 11 2012, 10:20 AM Post #176 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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The Church is in the business of making saints, not collecting money from sinners. It is entirely free for us sinners to become saints. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| jon-nyc | Feb 11 2012, 10:27 AM Post #177 |
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Cheers
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It is precisely the point (or non-point, really) you're making, just with different words. |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| ivorythumper | Feb 11 2012, 03:38 PM Post #178 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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No, it's not. The State considers all people innocent of crime except for the ones it doesn't consider innocent of crime. That is not a tautological statement, it is rather a statement that categorizes two types of people, the innocent and the guilty. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Moonbat | Feb 12 2012, 09:40 AM Post #179 |
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Pisa-Carp
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| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| Klaus | Feb 12 2012, 01:47 PM Post #180 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Closed-world assumption FTW! |
| Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman | |
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| ivorythumper | Feb 12 2012, 02:22 PM Post #181 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| KlavierBauer | Feb 14 2012, 12:48 PM Post #182 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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IT: Forgive my ignorance, I don't get it. If the State defines both "guilt," and "crime," then isn't your statement a tautology? Isn't it tantamount to saying "everyone is not guilty unless they are guilty" with an understanding that "guilty" is a boolean that everyone either is or isn't? |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| ivorythumper | Feb 14 2012, 01:21 PM Post #183 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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A tautology in formal logic is a statement that is true any way it is considered. In informal logic, it is replacing the terms with each other thus arguing on redundancy (circular reasoning). Perhaps Jon meant it in the formal sense, I took it in the informal sense on the grounds that had it intended it in the formal sense he would not have bothered to make the point, let alone call it a "non-point". But as I earlier stated, it not a matter of tautology but categorization: Consider this: The State considers all people innocent of crime except for the ones it doesn't consider innocent of crime. Those who are considered innocent of crime are entitled to all the civil rights of the State. Those who are considered guilty of crime (=the ones it doesn't consider innocent of crime) may have certain civil rights withheld. The first proposition is not a tautology (in the informal sense), it is merely a statement of categorization (definition, predicate) which is necessary to understand the following propositions. You can argue with the terms of the definition, but to declare it is tautological and somehow a "non-point" as Jon stated, is not an argument but a meaningless assertion. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| jon-nyc | Feb 14 2012, 07:05 PM Post #184 |
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Cheers
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I don't follow. Its a tautology because it fits the definition of tautology and its a non-point because it doesn't really contain any information. Of course the church considers all marriages valid except the ones it doesn't consider valid. Don't we all? |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| ivorythumper | Feb 14 2012, 10:24 PM Post #185 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Well, I'll grant that you made a non point since your attempt at boiling down the argument reflected nothing about how the Church presumes the validity of the bond. So it certainly wasn't the point (or nonpoint) that I was making -- but I'll grant you that you created a tautology. So do you consider all marriages valid except for the ones the Church doesn't consider valid? Or do you consider all marriages valid except for the ones that you personally don't consider valid? If the latter, what are your criteria for considering a marriage not being valid? The mere fact of failure? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| KlavierBauer | Feb 15 2012, 01:40 PM Post #186 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Jon: Thanks - it's a tautology (by definition). We can call it a categorization all day long, but it's still a categorization that contains no information beyond the category itself, and does nothing to tell you who's in the category - other than that everyone who isn't in it isn't in it, and all the people who are, are. I wrote a big thing yesterday and then deleted it - but clearly I'm incapable of shutting up for too long.
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| ivorythumper | Feb 15 2012, 01:55 PM Post #187 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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That's pretty much the definition of a categorization. You can call it a tautology all day long, but that doesn't really add anything. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| KlavierBauer | Feb 15 2012, 02:06 PM Post #188 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Exactly - by definition. At least you see finally that it is one... |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| ivorythumper | Feb 15 2012, 02:25 PM Post #189 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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So what is the point of calling a statement of categorization a "tautology" (given its commonplace pejorative meaning) rather than just accepting it as a statement of categorization? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Moonbat | Feb 15 2012, 02:41 PM Post #190 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Statement of categorisation: 'We classify platonic solids by the number of faces they possess' Tautology: 'Every platonic solid is a cube except for all the platonic solids that are not cubes' |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| KlavierBauer | Feb 15 2012, 02:46 PM Post #191 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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IT: I'm not calling you out on anything or entering in the argument, as is painfully obvious by my not being here the last 8 pages. I originally pointed out the statement in support of you, as Ax wanted "all" marriages included, and I pointed out that they were, in the eyes of the obviously (and logically) according to the tautological nature of the statement. I'm aware of no pejorative meaning associated with tautologies, so I apologize if you took it personally. I didn't push the point until you insisted that I had some misunderstanding as to what a tautology is, and proceeded to give me its multiple definitions. I don't have a dog in this fight - I'm not married, and I'm not gay, and I don't plan on being either in the future. |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| ivorythumper | Feb 15 2012, 02:50 PM Post #192 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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re Moonbat And? We consider all people innocent of any crimes and vested in all civil except for those who have been found guilty of specific crimes and may be deprived of some civil rights. The problem with claiming my earlier statements were tautological is that it ignores the reason and the process by which the categorizations occurred. The fact that Jon erroneously reframed my argument tautologically does not make my argument a tautology (in any pejorative sense of the word, nor in any meaningful dialogic sense). Edited by ivorythumper, Feb 15 2012, 02:52 PM.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Feb 15 2012, 02:52 PM Post #193 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I understand, which is why I took it out of the question of marriage validity to something other -- like judicial determinations -- to show it was a meaningless intervention on Jon's part. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| KlavierBauer | Feb 15 2012, 02:54 PM Post #194 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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It ignores nothing - it points out that I have no idea what you're trying to say beyond the obvious, as your statement contains no useful information. Your statement about guilt/innocence is no longer tautological because you've added a lot of information to it. You've added the distinction between innocence and guilt, vs. innocence and not innocent. You've also noted that one condition removes rights, while the other does not. Your previous similar statement about guilt/innocence however contained no such information and simply communicated that "everyone is part of this made up group, except for all of the people who aren't." Jon didn't reframe your argument, he tried to make clearer to you why one statement within your argument made little sense, because it contained no information. Edited by KlavierBauer, Feb 15 2012, 02:55 PM.
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| ivorythumper | Feb 15 2012, 03:04 PM Post #195 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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No KB. The point that the church or the state "considers" speaks to process and differentiation for an actual reason. I had already spoke of the process for adjudication. Do I have to tediously reiterate things for folks here to follow a basic position? Good grief. If you want to get all technical and academicy, it is based in the principle of identity, which is tautological -- it is one of the basic rules of logic, along with the principle of non contradiction and the principle of the excluded middle. Every one naturally does this for virtually every information process they do. I've never before found a group of people who would in any manner challenge such a basic point. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| KlavierBauer | Feb 15 2012, 03:11 PM Post #196 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Don't good grief me - I've already stated very very clearly that I'm not arguing this political issue with you, and have no problem understanding your point. I'm not trying to get technical and academic - as a reader of your work I was trying to point out its implied logical conclusion, which didn't need to be made in the statement. There's no need to make exceptions when the only group excepted is incapable of being included - that's not an exception. No need to start trying to sound smart by dropping terms like "excluded middle" and "non contradiction." I'm not arguing anything with you ... You can accept what I pointed out or not - I was trying to help you at first, but I'll let you continue on with this one alone. Edited by KlavierBauer, Feb 15 2012, 03:12 PM.
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| ivorythumper | Feb 15 2012, 03:21 PM Post #197 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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It shouldn't have had to be made -- I have no idea why Jon decided that the statement, given the entire context of everything I had written before, should be reframed and deemed "tautological". Presumably if you had no problem understanding the position, then Jon (and Moonbat) should have as well. But evidently they decided that they were more interested in pedantic arguments about logic than the subject itself. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| kenny | Feb 15 2012, 03:23 PM Post #198 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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| ivorythumper | Feb 15 2012, 03:28 PM Post #199 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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FINALLY!!! ![]()
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| KlavierBauer | Feb 15 2012, 03:33 PM Post #200 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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(I know you like picking on John - but I pointed out the nature of the statement first) It wasn't brought up with relation to your overall point. It was brought up because it didn't contain any information, and I wondered if you might want to add something to it. You didn't. 'Nuf said... |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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