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Take Up The Cross
Topic Started: Nov 24 2011, 04:34 AM (1,987 Views)
Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Nov 25 2011, 11:55 AM
Catholics and Protestants have been able to worship in the same buildings for ages. I don't see them as having a conflict. They worship the same God, and generally can get along just fine. Jews worship the same God, half the Bible is shared with Christianity. They are of the same "faith tradition". Muslims are not. Islam is a cult that worships a moon rock, that while it claims to share some connection with the God of Israel, does not. Jews, Catholics, and Christians can find a common ground. Muslims cannot.

I have learned from discourse in this forum that Evangelicals and biblical literalists with or without asshats seem to have difficulty finding common ground as well.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
jon-nyc
Nov 25 2011, 09:35 AM
Dewey
Nov 25 2011, 09:27 AM
The hopes and fears of these people have been far deeper than that. What every single theist among them has wanted, more than anything else, was conversation about God's existence and the reality of life beyond this one, and whether this life - which is just a part of the coming one - was a life lived well, and in a meaningful way pleasing to their God. What theists, agnostics and atheists want to know is that their loved ones know how much they love them, and to know that they have been loved themselves, and that their lives have had a positive benefit to the people they leave behind and to the world in general. All of them have wanted the simple act of another human being reaching out to them, offering them compassion and human contact and assurance in this most intimate of all human moments.
You've got it all wrong, Dewey. What they really want is some Evangelical asshat telling them they're going to burn in hell.


(Seriously, though, good post)
We know you don't care for God.

Make fun of whatever denomination you wish...but don't blaspheme God, you may need him one day.

And blasphemy is the one sin He will not forgive.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
And while we're at it, would someone please take the crosses off of the military ambulances?

I'd hate for a kid dying behind a cross to offend anybody...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Nov 25 2011, 01:25 PM
Make fun of whatever denomination you wish...but don't blaspheme God, you may need him one day.

And blasphemy is the one sin He will not forgive.
Source? :lol2:
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Jolly
Nov 25 2011, 01:25 PM
And blasphemy is the one sin He will not forgive.
I'd have thought that the torturing and killing of small children would be way more problematic.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
I hate the pc term "faith traditions".


Whether you hate it or not, it isn't a sop to be politically correct, it's a term used to capture all diverse groups of religious belief. You can't use the term "denominations" because that doesn't capture religions other than Christianity, and doesn't even capture all of Christianity, since Catholic and Orthodox branches do not use that term. Further - as Renauda just pointed out - there is even a wide swath of different beliefs, even within Protestant denominations. And you can't just the term "religions" if you want to still recognize the differences among Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox Christianity, since they are different streams of belief within the Church - i.e., different traditions - but they are all one "religion." "Faith tradition" captures all of these different groups. But again, if you don't like the term, that's a personal issue; you can deal with it as you'd like.

Quote:
 
Show me in that list where the chaplains were instructed on how to lead worship for muslims. Show me.

That is the crux of this issue.


Indeed it is. More than anything, you're worked up about this because, since the article pointed out the existence of mosques elsewhere on the German base, you see this as a "Muslim thing." Your seething hatred, based on ignorance, of Islam and all things Muslim have blinded you to the very simple reality of the actual situation about the improper permanent display of the cross on the US multifaith chapel.

Quote:
 
Catholics and Protestants have been able to worship in the same buildings for ages. I don't see them as having a conflict. They worship the same God, and generally can get along just fine. Jews worship the same God, half the Bible is shared with Christianity. They are of the same "faith tradition". Muslims are not. Islam is a cult that worships a moon rock, that while it claims to share some connection with the God of Israel, does not. Jews, Catholics, and Christians can find a common ground. Muslims cannot.


Witness the ignorance.

To be perfectly honest, Islam has more in common with Christianity than Judaism does. Islam recognizes the Hebrew prophets, believes in the virgin birth of Jesus, and considers him to have been the messiah - the most exalted of all the prophets, except for Mohammed. This is so much the case that Islam has sometimes been described as merely a heretical version of Christianity.

Your views regarding Islam are wrong, but that's a side issue that only detracts from the actual point here. Save yourself the trouble of arguing your views regarding Islam; I'm not going to argue it with you. It isn't relevant in the least to what's going on in this news story.

The US military chaplaincy has had to offer equal treatment of all religious faith traditions found within the soldiers' ranks since the very beginning of the military chaplaincy. Even if you wanted to restrict the chaplaincy's responsibility to only Protestants (and which ones of those?), Catholics (and what about the Orthodox?), and Jews (and wwhich ones of those?), the point relevant to this news story remains: the chaplaincy would be acting contrary to the Constitution and military regulations if it permanently and exclusively displayed a Christian cross on or in the multifaith chapel. It doesn't matter whether you want to discuss two faith traditions or two hundred; the same principle applies. The military chaplaincy cannot show preference or favoritism of one faith tradition over another, and permanently affixing a cross on the chapel entry does exactly that.

Quote:
 
That is my point. When it was Jews, Christians, and Catholics, everyone got along just fine


Oh, we did, did we? You've got some interesting history book, Larry.

But back to the point: The US military chaplaincy has had a policy of equal accommodation for all faith traditions - providing for worship for, and spiritual nurture for, a wide range of faiths - far wider than just the handful of major faiths we've discussed so far. It has had to do so in order for the chaplaincy corp to even pass Constitutional muster at all. And it has done so to the betterment of all of those who have served in our armed forces, regardless of their religious beliefs.

And that brings me back to something I touched on earlier. I think about a Christian soldier who bunks with, serves with, goes out on patrol with, a fellow soldier who happens to be Jewish, or Muslim, or Hindu, or Bhuddist. Friends who have lived together and laughed together, cried together and faced death together. Friends who have shared news of families at home, pictures of childrens' birthdays, shared bad news, maybe even of deaths, from home. I think about two friends from different childhoods, different backgrounds, different religious beliefs, who become the best, deepest, strongest of friends. Two of the "Band of Brothers." I think about a Christian soldier, and a non-Christian soldier, who have placed their lives in each other's hands, and who have together mourned the loss of numerous other of their brothers.

And when I think about that Christian soldier, I cannot for the life of me imagine him wanting to disrespect or dishonor his friend and his religious beliefs, telling him he's some kind of second-class soldier, not part of the preferred religion of the corps, by having my chaplain mount a Christian cross on the chapel that's been put there to give spiritual support to not only me, but my non-Christian buddy as well. If I were that Christian soldier, I wouldn't want that cross there, and I'd be mad at the person who put it up - and I'd be madder still at some other soldier who whined about it, and thought they had some divine right to consider their - my - faith as more important than my buddy's.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
To be perfectly honest, Islam has more in common with Christianity than Judaism does.


Quote:
 
Your views regarding Islam are wrong,


No Dewey, yours are. Anyone who could say that islam has more in common with Christianity than it does Judaism with a straight face is just about stupid. Sorry.

Quote:
 
The US military chaplaincy has had to offer equal treatment of all religious faith traditions found within the soldiers' ranks since the very beginning of the military chaplaincy.


I've finally figured it out. You're not fit to be a minister in a Christian church, but you make a good nondenominational/one size fits all/unitarian/new age/god is what you want him to be Chaplain.

Quote:
 
If I were that Christian soldier, I wouldn't want that cross there, and I'd be mad at the person who put it up - and I'd be madder still at some other soldier who whined about it, and thought they had some divine right to consider their - my - faith as more important than my buddy's.


Well, that's because there's nothing left of your biblical principles.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Rainman
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Fulla-Carp
Interesting subject. Not the main thread, but the tangent(s).

Browsed around via Google, there is a lot about military chaplains. Although I knew they exist (duh), did not know much about background requirements, their organization within the military, etc.

Came across the following article, quoting the last part - Chaplain (Colonel) Herman Keizer, Jr., USA (Ret):
Quote:
 
One objection to praying in Jesus' name is that such
prayers exclude non-Christians from the public
prayer. Any sectarian prayer is exclusive and not
inclusive. In the religiously pluralistic environment
of the military, claims of exclusion are not leveled
against rabbis who offer prayers in Hebrew and
translate them into English. They are not lodged
against imams who in Arabic recite from the Koran
and pray to Allah. Surely, these prayers are as
sectarian and exclusive as praying in Jesus' name.
Yet, these sectarian prayers seem more acceptable
in the military community and are not censored in
public, secular settings.
One reason for the acceptance of rabbis and imams
is that they clearly represent their religious
traditions and do so without apology. They wear the
vestments, use the language, and read the
scriptures of their traditions. They recite prayers
formed in and by their traditions. One expects a
rabbi to be Jewish, an imam to be Muslim.
Objective analysis of religious freedom in the
military will demonstrate that the practice of praying
public, sectarian prayers already exists within our
Armed Forces. Thus, Christian Chaplains should be
recognized as representing their traditions and
allowed to use the resources and prayers of their
tradition without censorship or reprisal.


What I would like to know, and cannot find, is how many chaplains there are in the military, and what the percentages are per faith i.e., Christian, Jewish, Muslims, etc.

I would also like to know what the requirements are for acceptance for Muslims. Background requirements are stringent, but what comparable education is there for Muslims (is there an equivalent seminary or accredited educational background for Muslims?). And, is there a problem with a imam interracting with Christians IOW, I thought for the most part, their role if anything would be to convert the infidels.

Sorry for my bias against Muslims, if it appears in the above. Trying to be cool, objective, and maybe learn something.
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Nov 25 2011, 11:59 AM
Larry
Nov 25 2011, 11:55 AM
That is the crux of this issue. Catholics and Protestants have been able to worship in the same buildings for ages.
Prior to that, of course, in Britain at least we'd use the Catholics as fire-lighters.
I thought the same thing...
And how are you today?
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
There is a lot I'm not saying because I can't be bothered to type it all out, but:

1. I pretty much agree with Dewey

2. I'm 100% sure that my Grandfather didn't give a damn what faith his fellow captives followed. My Grandmother was visited by a soldier who served with Grandfather. This man made the trip in person to tell her that her husband was a true hero and that he comforted men in their darkest hours. He told her that Grandfather gave his portions and blankets to others. He might still be alive, if he had only denounced his God, but he didn't. A tangent, I know...also, I have his copy of "The Origin of Species". It looks like he studied it a good amount.

I guess what I'm trying to say is basically, the whole thing is stupid. It doesn't matter what symbol is where; a chaplain is there to comfort people in the best way he/she can. A Christian soldier is no better or worse than a Muslim or Jewish (if they're on the same side, of course!), and shouldn't be treated as such.

This snipet is from this article, which is an interesting read.

"Chaplain Kapaun was the first of several Army chaplains who suffered in captivity. A mere 2 days after his capture, another chaplain fell into the hands of the Chinese. Kenneth C. Hyslop, Northern Baptist, was with the men of the 19th Regiment, 24th Infantry Division, who were attempting to stop the Communist drive south of Unsan near Anju. The 6-year veteran of Army service received the Bronze Star earlier for remaining with wounded who were cut off and eventually leading them back to friendly lines. Hyslop was captured on 4 November. Primarily because of internal injuries as a result of mistreatment by his captors, he died of starvation 38 days later on 12 December."


Posted Image
Chaplain Kenneth C. Hyslop, Northern Baptist,
died in captivity of starvation due to internal injuries
and mistreatment by his captors.


One thing I wonder: if the chaplain is Jewish, would the lapel pins be Stars of David?

Oh, and sorry the pic is so big. "Are you ready for your close-up, Grandfather?"
Edited by LWpianistin, Nov 25 2011, 05:42 PM.
And how are you today?
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
http://www.military.com/news/article/pantano-hits-military-political-correctness.html

"Wall Street Marine" Ilario Pantano -- who ran an unsuccessful campaign for Congress in North Carolina last year -- says servicemembers and veterans are harmed because political correctness has taken religion "out of the foxhole."

Speaking at the Conservative Political Action Committee conference in Washington DC Feb. 10, Pantano said political correctness that promotes moral relativism in favor of diversity and tolerance weakens the spirit of troops by making them question what they're doing.

"The military is hurt by political correctness because the young men and women that we send out to go find that bad guy and kill him have to be grounded in intense state of absolute certainty," he told the crowd of conservative political activists. "There can't be gray … if you take way the certainty of absolute Biblical truths, you leave them nothing."

The consequence is that troops "come back broken" from war, he said.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,206026,00.html

"In response to the killing of 13 American soldiers at Ft. Hood by an Islamic U. S. Army major, a number of senior officials have expressed their fear, not of Islam, but of a possible threat to "diversity." "Diversity" is one of the many false gods of "Political Correctness." But what exactly is Political Correctness?

Political Correctness is cultural Marxism, Marxism translated from economic into cultural terms. Its history goes back not to the 1960s but to World War I. Before 1914, Marxist theory said that if a major war broke out in Europe, the workers of every country would join together in a revolution to overthrow capitalism and replace it with international socialism. But when war came, that did not happen. What had gone wrong?

Two Marxist theorists, Antonio Gramsci in Italy and Georg Lukacs in Hungary, independently came up with the same answer. They said that Western culture and the Christian religion had so "blinded" the working class to its true (Marxist) class interests that Communism was impossible in the West until traditional culture and Christianity were destroyed. When Lukacs became Deputy Commissar for Culture in the short-lived Bela Kun Bolshevik government in Hungary in 1919, one of his first acts was introducing sex education into the Hungarian schools. He knew that destroying traditional sexual morals would be a major step toward destroying Western culture itself."

"Most people in the U. S. military hate Political Correctness, but they don't know how to fight it. The way to fight it is to find out what it really is, and make sure all your friends find out too. Political Correctness is cultural Marxism"
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
But there's nothing correct or incorrect about this. It's not a church; it's a place for all people to worship, not just Christians.
And how are you today?
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
LWpianistin
Nov 25 2011, 07:01 PM
But there's nothing correct or incorrect about this. It's not a church; it's a place for all people to worship, not just Christians.
Hopefully they don't let in any Marxist Muslims. Patriotic heads would freaking explode if any of those guys turned up. The only way it could get any more outrageous is if they were also registered Democrats. Imagine!
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
No Dewey, yours are. Anyone who could say that islam has more in common with Christianity than it does Judaism with a straight face is just about stupid. Sorry.

Quote:
 
I've finally figured it out. You're not fit to be a minister in a Christian church, but you make a good nondenominational/one size fits all/unitarian/new age/god is what you want him to be Chaplain.

Quote:
 
Well, that's because there's nothing left of your biblical principles.


I've already told you that I'm not going to chase you down the side street of personal insults, or the side street of debating Islam.

You want to try to dredge up your favorite go-to arguments to try to tie them to this very simple story.

1. Personal attack.
[/ignore]

2. Islam is evil and this is a "Muslim thing," since soldiers' mosques were mentioned in the article.
This isn't a "Muslim thing;" it's a Constitution thing, an Army Regs thing, and a Christian thing having to do with loving your neighbor as you love yourself. There hasn't even been any mention that any Muslim, or Jew, or any other person complained about the cross' presence to prompt its removal. My personal suspicion is that the chaplain's superior officer came through the base, saw it, and gave the chaplain a dressing-down and told him to take it down, immediately.

Now you've moved on to

3. This is all just a bunch of sickening political correctness - which is really just Marxism, you know.
It isn't Marxism or political correctness to stand up for the founding principles of this country - that all citizens receive equal toleration of their religious views, and that the government must not and will not offer any endorsement or preference for one religion over another. It isn't Marxism or political correctness to obey longstanding military protocol for providing a place for soldiers of all religious faiths to worship and practice their faith in a respectful and tolerant manner.

You're trying to throw every stock argument at the story to see if any of them will stick, and in reality, none of them are actually relevant. You're just using the arguments to try to buttress your own desire to place your own professed Christian faith in a place of predominance over the faith of others, in a way that is consistent with neither the principles and laws of your country, nor the tenets of Christianity. It isn't working. You're completely, totally wrong about this, Larry.

A chaplain has to be a woman or man of deep, profound personal faith - a faith strong enough that it doesn't feel challenged or threatened by providing spiritual comfort and support to people whose religious views aren't the same as their own - their entire religion may be different from their own. The chaplain's mission - the chaplain's very special ministry - is not to prosletyze others, trying to get them to accept their own religious views. If a person asks for the chaplain's own beliefs, the chaplain is able to share those beliefs, but otherwise, it's all about helping that person from within their own spiritual framework, even while drawing strength from the chaplain's own specific faith. There have been many cases where would-be chaplains have not been emotionally or temperamentally cut out for that very specialized form of ministry, and have gotten themselves in trouble and even washed out of the chaplaincy completely.

This chaplain was wrong, and was properly ordered to correct the error. A U.S. military field chapel is a place for the free and tolerant worship of all faiths, equally. As LWP has correctly pointed out, it isn't a church where other faiths are grudgingly given secondary accommodation. All worship freely and equally, by Constitutional amendment, by Army regulations, and as consistent with the core tenets of Christianity. Those crybaby soldiers complaining about the removal of the cross from the front of the chapel are among the worst of possible witnesses for their professed Lord, and what faith in him is all about.


"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
LWP, your grandfather was a genuine hero. Thank you for sharing his story. I can only hope that if I were to ever find myself in a similar situation, I'd respond with the same spiritual honor and integrity.

And yes - a rabbi would have a star of David on his/her lapel, and an imam would have a crescent. There are a few other faith-specific insignias as well.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
John D'Oh
Nov 25 2011, 11:59 AM
Larry
Nov 25 2011, 11:55 AM
That is the crux of this issue. Catholics and Protestants have been able to worship in the same buildings for ages.
Prior to that, of course, in Britain at least we'd use the Catholics as fire-lighters.
Take a look around, Dorothy. You ain't in England, anymore.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
BTW, here is the Chaplain's Manual from the era of LW's kin:

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/FM/PDFs/FM16-5.pdf

Wanna show me where it prohibits the display of a cross?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Wanna show me where this current news story is about prohibiting the display of a cross?

Again - this is an issue of prohibiting the permanent, exclusive display of a cross.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Jolly
Nov 26 2011, 02:54 AM
John D'Oh
Nov 25 2011, 11:59 AM
Larry
Nov 25 2011, 11:55 AM
That is the crux of this issue. Catholics and Protestants have been able to worship in the same buildings for ages.
Prior to that, of course, in Britain at least we'd use the Catholics as fire-lighters.
Take a look around, Dorothy. You ain't in England, anymore.
To be precise, these people are in Germany.

Obviously, American Christians are completely free of religious bigotry, since it says so in the Constitution.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
You don't say! I think there must be something in that document as well that states that America is the fourth Rome. Larry and Jolly sure put on a dog and pony show as though it is.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Army Chaplain Corps Activities
Department of the Army Regulation 165-1

www.chapnet.army.mil/Documents/r165_1.pdf


Excerpts:

1-6 The Chaplaincy and the U.S. Constitution

b. The Establishment clause [of the Constitution] forbids any governmental authority from mandating a religion or way of prayer In the pluralistic religious setting of the military, Unit Ministry Teams (UMTs) provide opportunities for religious support (worship services, religious classes, prayers, and so forth) for individuals from all religious backgrounds. Chaplains cooperate with each other without compromising their faith tradition or ecclesiastical endorsement requirements, to ensure the most comprehensive religious support opportunities possible within the unique military environment.

d. The Chaplaincy is an instrumentality of the U.S. Government to ensure that the "free-exercise" rights of religion are not abridged. This constitutional principle is deeply imbedded in the statutory foundations of the Army. ....


Section II - Responsibilities (additional responsibilities are found in subsequent chapters)

1-9 Commanders

[Commanders will -]

a. Provide equitable support for religious, spiritual, moral, and ethical activities of all personnel in their commands.

b. Provide opportunity, time, and facilities for the free exercise of religion in accordance with law, regulations, and mission requirements.

c. Accommodate special religious practices of personnel in their commands....


3-2 Chaplain as professional military religious leader

a. General. All Chaplains provide for the nurture and practice of religious beliefs, traditions, and customs in a pluralistic environment to strengthen the spiritual lives of Soldiers and their Families. ....

b. Roles and responsibilities.

(1) Chaplains are required by law to hold religious services for members of the command to which they are assigned, when practicable. Chaplains provide for religious support, pastoral care, and the moral and spiritual well-being of the command (10 USC 3547).

(2) Chaplains will minister to the personnel of their unit and/or facilitate the free-exercise rights of all personnel, regardless of religious affilation of either the Chaplain or the unit member.

12-3. Religious Facilities

c. Religious facilities designs. ... Standard designs included detailed religious functional requirements to accommodate diverse faith groups. ....

h. Use of chapel facilities. ... Provisions will be made in the construction of the facility to accommodate the requirements of distinctive faith groups, such as: the Blessed Sacrament (Roman Catholic), segregated kosher kitchen/storage (Jewish), and ritual washing (Islamic). ...

h. (3) Chapels must be available for meditation and prayer when formal religious services are not scheduled.

i. Naming and identifying facilities. ...Religious facilities will not be...designated by a name or term suggesting any distinctive faith group.

k. Symbols. The chapel environment will be religiously neutral when the facility is not being used for scheduled worship. Portable religious symbols icons, or statures may be used within a chapel during times of religious worship. Symbols are to be moved or covered when not in use during services. Distinctive religious symbols, such as crosses, crucifixes, the Star of David, Menorah, and other religious symbols will not be affixed or displayed permanently on the chapel interior, exterior, or grounds. Permanent or fixed chapel furnishings, such as the altar, pulpit, lectern, or communion rail will be devoid of distinctive religious symbols.

m. Stained glass windows. ... Stained glass window designs will not reflect an exclusively distinctive faith group orientation. ....

=====

This story is a non-story. The chaplain in the field screwed up and have to fix his mistake; and the soldiers complaining - and those supporting them - are whining for a special religious privilege to which the Constitution, common respect for one's fellow soldiers, and the tenets of the Christian faith, do not entitle them. It really is that simple. We are not a "Christian nation," we are religiously diverse and always have been; and when we acted as if we were in the past, to the detriment of non-Christian Americans - soldiers and civilians - we were not living into the principles embodied in our Constitution.




"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
But everyone likes a good story, so they make one up sometimes.
And how are you today?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Well... *my* grandfather always used to say, "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story." ^_^
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
You still haven't shown us where it says muslims in that, nor why muslims get a special place of worship yet you aren't pissing your panties over that.

I read it too, and I saw it say that chaplains did not have to hold religious services that were opposed to his beliefs, and I saw it talking about that in the context of various Christian denominations, Judaism being the only nonChristian religion mentioned anywhere. From what I read it does not say a thing about having to accommodate muslims, hindus, or any other non Christian religion.

I guess that's because before you went to seminary and learned more than everyone else, that's because most everyone just accepted the fact that we were - at least then.. a Christian nation.

Edited by Larry, Nov 26 2011, 03:17 PM.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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