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Take Up The Cross
Topic Started: Nov 24 2011, 04:34 AM (1,988 Views)
Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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What part of what I've written disgusts you?



This:

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This is really just a non-story about a handful of crybabies and a misbehaving chaplain.


If that's what you saw, you are seriously screwed in the head.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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jon-nyc
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Cheers
What part of 'multifaith' chapel is so hard to understand?
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
jon-nyc
Nov 25 2011, 01:30 AM
What part of 'multifaith' chapel is so hard to understand?
If it's multifaith, why do the Muslims have two seperate mosques on the same base?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
jon-nyc
Nov 25 2011, 01:30 AM
What part of 'multifaith' chapel is so hard to understand?
I think it's the 'multi' bit. They think it means all the different kinds of Christianity. Except for the ones that are disgusting perversions of Christianity, obviously.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Nov 25 2011, 05:18 AM
jon-nyc
Nov 25 2011, 01:30 AM
What part of 'multifaith' chapel is so hard to understand?
If it's multifaith, why do the Muslims have two seperate mosques on the same base?
Those, I would turn into a beer hall and a bordello. The crossless interfaith/ US Christian one would make a fine bingo hall and casino.
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Dewey
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A relatively recent thing thanks to the kind of weak kneed, politically correct, spiritually dead nonsense that you are now using to justify it.

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Long standing? You think????? How may f*cking mosques do you think they put up in Korea? Vietnam? Long standing??? You're out of your mind, guy.

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No, the Church is at its most corrupt when it has the kind of self serving nonsense you just attempted to justify coming out of the pulpits.

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If that's what you saw, you are seriously screwed in the head.


Larry, if you want to talk about the actual issue instead of insulting me, I'll be happy to discuss it. But even then, I recommend you do a little research about the multifaith aspect of chaplaincy, the history of US military chaplains, and their academic training and psychological screening to determine whether they're emotionally suitable to be able to properly provide spiritual nurture and guidance in a multifaith setting. You might also want to do a bit of homework about how long the US military has had this multifaith, nonsectarian approach.

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This is a case of soldiers wanting it, and thanks to the politically correct and the spiritually pussified, they can no longer have it.


Yes: "Waaaaaaah, I want MY religion to be treated as more important than anyone else's!! I don't care what the Constitution says, I don't care what Army regs say, I want it now!! And if you won't give me what I want, you're all just a bunch of politically correct pussies!! Waaaaaaaaah!!!"

As I said, if your response to the facts is disgust, that's strictly a matter of your emotions - but the facts, whether you're completely aware of them or not, are still the facts.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
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If it's multifaith, why do the Muslims have two seperate mosques on the same base?


Jolly, you're not paying attention. It's been pointed out a couple of times in this thread, by different people: this is a German military installation, at which American troops are based as part of a NATO operation. The mosques are not operated by the US military. When the US military goes into the field, it provides one multifaith chaplaincy for its troops, and it's done so for many years, and it has done so at this base. The fact that other governments may do things differently, and that there may be a mosque provided by another country's military on the same base, doesn't change the mission, or the regulations, of the Army Chaplain Corps one bit. This really isn't difficult to follow.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Nov 25 2011, 05:18 AM
If it's multifaith, why do the Muslims have two seperate mosques on the same base?
:shrug: Ask the Germans.
And how are you today?
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Larry
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Larry, if you want to talk about the actual issue instead of insulting me, I'll be happy to discuss it. But even then, I recommend you do a little research about the multifaith aspect of chaplaincy, the history of US military chaplains, and their academic training and psychological screening to determine whether they're emotionally suitable to be able to properly provide spiritual nurture and guidance in a multifaith setting. You might also want to do a bit of homework about how long the US military has had this multifaith, nonsectarian approach.


I was already pretty aware of it, but I decided I would take you up on that, and I *did* do some research - and as it happens, just as I said, you're full of sh!t. Prior to 1972, the only "multifaith" concerns involved whether the chaplain was a methodist or a lutheran or a catholic or whatever. Needing to accommodate muslims is a recent situation. Now we have you know it all but johnny come lately types wanting to turn the place of worship for soldiers into just another tent so as to not offend a small group of people who either don't object or care for your "help", or demand a separate tent.

You are very good at defending your views Dewey, unfortunately you views are constructed on sand.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/890/religion-in-the-military

When a serviceman (or woman) is thousands of miles from home, homesick, scared, facing death at every turn, wondering if he'll make it back home, and wanting the peace and comfort that seeing something he holds dear close at hand, just a small tent with a symbol of his religious faith hanging there, the last thing he needs is a bunch of you pussies rambling on like a bunch of pompous morons about "multifaith" and your perverted understanding of the Constitution and how he can't have that because it might offend someone. If you think I'm trying to insult you, you're wrong. If it *does* insult you, then perhaps the shoe fit.

Edited by Larry, Nov 25 2011, 08:08 AM.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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jon-nyc
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Larry
Nov 25 2011, 08:04 AM
Prior to 1972, the only "multifaith" concerns involved whether the chaplain was a methodist or a lutheran or a catholic or whatever.
My wife's father would have been surprised by that, as a Chaplain (Rabbi) in the Army in the 60s.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
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You are very good at defending your views Dewey


It's pretty easy defending a position when all the facts are on your side.

Larry, one book that I routinely refer to in our church library is a service manual for Army chaplains from WW II. It includes some prayers that I particularly like for certain circumstances, and I draw on it occasionally when preparing services. The manual details the chaplain's multifaith role, and offers him instructions on how to lead worship for Catholics, Protestants, and Jews - the three faith traditions that would meet almost every soldier's needs at that time. Your information about military chaplaincy being multifaith only since 1972 is absolutely incorrect. In fact, I'm not really sure you even read the Pew Research link you offered to support your claim. The only reference to 1972 in the entire link refers to the court case Anderson v. Laird, which ruled that it was unconstitutional for the branches of the armed forces to mandate attendance at religious services (of whatever tradition). It had nothing to do with military chaplaincy being multifaith in mission - a situation which was already a longstanding tradition in 1972.

The U.S. military has offered its chaplains basic training in Muslim beliefs and spiritual needs, in order to help them be effective spiritual guides to Muslims in their care in the field, for years. Obviously, Islam is a minority faith in the U.S., but as its numbers have increased, so has chaplains' training and responsibility. And as those numbers increase, so too will the numbers of chaplains who are Muslims - the first Muslim chaplain in the US military was commissioned in 1994, long before 9/11.

Of course, every chaplain is most familiar with his or her own faith tradition. They profess their own faith, and when asked about their own faith they talk about their own beliefs. But their purpose in the field isn't about them - it's about the beliefs of the soldiers in their care. And if that soldier is Jewish, or Muslim, or Buddhist, or Hindu, or "spiritual but not religious," or agnostic or atheist - it's the chaplain's role to help that soldier, within the framework of his or her own belief system - giving nurture, support, and guidance to that soldier from the soldier's viewpoint, and not pushing the chaplain's own beliefs onto the soldier whose views are different (and yes, it's precisely the same mission and ministry that chaplains in hospitals, prisons, airports, colleges, and other venues are charged with).

Quote:
 
When a serviceman (or woman) is thousands of miles from home, homesick, scared, facing death at every turn, wondering if he'll make it back home, and wanting the peace and comfort that seeing something he holds dear close at hand, just a small tent with a symbol of his religious faith hanging there


That's fine, if the soldier happens to be a Christian. But not all soldiers are Christian, and to have only a Christian symbol permanently, exclusively fixed to the chapel is dishonoring the many wonderful members of our armed forces who are not Christians. It is no comfort, no peace, to a Jewish or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist or Sikh who has sworn an oath to defend this country by serving or fighting in our armed forces, and who are every bit as far away from home, homesick, scared, and facing death as their Christian messmates. To demand special recognition for any one faith over others is unconstitutional and dishonors the service and dedication of those non-Christians who faithfully serve.

This is not a difficult thing to comprehend: the issue here is not dishonoring Christianity or the cross; it's about permanently and exclusively displaying it on the center of expression of ALL RELIGIOUS FAITHS of the soldiers assigned there.

As a chaplain and a pastor myself, I speak with people on almost a daily basis who are facing the uncertainty of death - not on the battlefield, but in a hospital bed. I have sat with, and offered spiritual nurture and support to, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and atheists as they laid there in fear, contemplating their futures, whether that future was being estimated to be months or minutes. I've held the hand of a number of people as they've breathed their last breath; I've been the last person to speak with many of them and the only person with them when they've died. I've offered them pastoral care as they've tried to decide whether to quit the fight, to be taken off their ventilator; to change their code status to DNR. And I can honestly tell you that I've never had one of them ever tell me that what would give them the support they needed was to be able to see a cross, or a star of David, or a Muslim crescent, or a Dharma Wheel, nailed to the wall of their hospital room. The hopes and fears of these people have been far deeper than that. What every single theist among them has wanted, more than anything else, was conversation about God's existence and the reality of life beyond this one, and whether this life - which is just a part of the coming one - was a life lived well, and in a meaningful way pleasing to their God. What theists, agnostics and atheists want to know is that their loved ones know how much they love them, and to know that they have been loved themselves, and that their lives have had a positive benefit to the people they leave behind and to the world in general. All of them have wanted the simple act of another human being reaching out to them, offering them compassion and human contact and assurance in this most intimate of all human moments. And in that moment, there's very little significance to the outer trappings of various religious traditions. As I pointed out earlier, it was a rabbi who christened the little premature baby who died in our NICU a couple weeks ago.

This is the mission of a military chaplain. To be there, as a source of spiritual and moral inspiration to EVERY SINGLE ONE of the soldiers whose care they've been charged with. And that tent isn't "just another tent," it's the center, the focal point, of religious expression for EVERY SINGLE ONE of those soldiers, not just the Christian ones. For the chaplain at this base to permanently affix a cross to his chapel, and no other religious insignias, is a sign to me that he doesn't completely understand his role there. His action was an insult to the non-Christians in his care. That's the insult that matters to me.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Renauda
Nov 25 2011, 06:38 AM
Jolly
Nov 25 2011, 05:18 AM
jon-nyc
Nov 25 2011, 01:30 AM
What part of 'multifaith' chapel is so hard to understand?
If it's multifaith, why do the Muslims have two seperate mosques on the same base?
Those, I would turn into a beer hall and a bordello. The crossless interfaith/ US Christian one would make a fine bingo hall and casino.
BBQ joint would be better for the mosques.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Dewey
Nov 25 2011, 09:27 AM
The hopes and fears of these people have been far deeper than that. What every single theist among them has wanted, more than anything else, was conversation about God's existence and the reality of life beyond this one, and whether this life - which is just a part of the coming one - was a life lived well, and in a meaningful way pleasing to their God. What theists, agnostics and atheists want to know is that their loved ones know how much they love them, and to know that they have been loved themselves, and that their lives have had a positive benefit to the people they leave behind and to the world in general. All of them have wanted the simple act of another human being reaching out to them, offering them compassion and human contact and assurance in this most intimate of all human moments.
You've got it all wrong, Dewey. What they really want is some Evangelical asshat telling them they're going to burn in hell.


(Seriously, though, good post)
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
 
BBQ joint would be better for the mosques.


Would certainly be in keeping with the all embracing ecumenical spirit of this thread.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Nov 25 2011, 09:35 AM
You've got it all wrong, Dewey. What they really want is some Evangelical asshat telling them they're going to burn in hell.


Evangelical asshat. :lol2:


Quite the vestment!
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I'm just thinking that a little cold beer and the knowledge that pork can in fact be divine might do a lot for Muslim tolerance.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Renauda
Nov 25 2011, 09:46 AM
jon-nyc
Nov 25 2011, 09:35 AM
You've got it all wrong, Dewey. What they really want is some Evangelical asshat telling them they're going to burn in hell.


Evangelical asshat. :lol2:


Quite the vestment!
Something with a feather for style I think.

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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Nov 25 2011, 09:48 AM
I'm just thinking that a little cold beer and the knowledge that pork can in fact be divine might do a lot for Muslim tolerance.
Bacon is one thing, but I'd hate to see them get even wackier after a few drinks. All that pent up sexual frustration from lusting after burqa'ed droids.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Mikhailoh
Nov 25 2011, 09:51 AM
Something with a feather for style I think.

Posted Image
On the risk of getting Kenny started....

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In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Nov 25 2011, 09:51 AM
Something with a feather for style I think.

Posted Image
Very nice. I especially like the purple hat band. Very traditional for the lead up to feasts like Christmas and Easter.

A touch or two of gold thread would also compliment the asshat nicely.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
No problem. We'll serve the opium smoked ribs.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Renauda
Nov 25 2011, 10:00 AM
Mikhailoh
Nov 25 2011, 09:51 AM
Something with a feather for style I think.

Posted Image
Very nice. I especially like the purple hat band. Very traditional for the lead up to feasts like Christmas and Easter.

A touch or two of gold thread would also compliment the asshat nicely.
Just realized it looks a bit like this guy's hat.

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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
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No problem. We'll serve the opium smoked ribs.



No opium- that could lead to fornications and other assorted abuminiations.

:tsktsk:
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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The manual details the chaplain's multifaith role, and offers him instructions on how to lead worship for Catholics, Protestants, and Jews - the three faith traditions that would meet almost every soldier's needs at that time.


I hate the pc term "faith traditions". Show me in that list where the chaplains were instructed on how to lead worship for muslims. Show me.

That is the crux of this issue. Catholics and Protestants have been able to worship in the same buildings for ages. I don't see them as having a conflict. They worship the same God, and generally can get along just fine. Jews worship the same God, half the Bible is shared with Christianity. They are of the same "faith tradition". Muslims are not. Islam is a cult that worships a moon rock, that while it claims to share some connection with the God of Israel, does not. Jews, Catholics, and Christians can find a common ground. Muslims cannot.

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The U.S. military has offered its chaplains basic training in Muslim beliefs and spiritual needs, in order to help them be effective spiritual guides to Muslims in their care in the field, for years.


How many years, Dewey? Prior to 1972? No. That is my point. When it was Jews, Christians, and Catholics, everyone got along just fine, and we weren't buried up in all this PC bullsh!t. Now we're drowning in it, and you want to hang your hat on that and because we've been drowning in it for years you want to claim it's a long established "tradition". Well, it's not. The long established tradition is that Jews, Christians, and Catholics are not part of this PC crap you call "multifaith tradition", and prior to all the PC crap we have to put up with today, they managed just fine.

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Larry
Nov 25 2011, 11:55 AM
That is the crux of this issue. Catholics and Protestants have been able to worship in the same buildings for ages.
Prior to that, of course, in Britain at least we'd use the Catholics as fire-lighters.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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