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Take Up The Cross
Topic Started: Nov 24 2011, 04:34 AM (1,984 Views)
Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
...and toss it away...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1111/69039.html
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Good to see them doing the right thing.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Yep. The cross should never have been permanently affixed to the chapel to begin with. The Army regulations are correct; that chapel is a place for the religious worship and support for soldiers of all faiths, and even no religious faith.

Quote:
 
“I walk by the chapel daily on the way to chow and the gym, and seeing the cross is a daily reminder of my faith


But your buddy, who's putting his or her life at risk for our country just as much as you are, sees it as a daily reminder that their non-Christian faith is considered less valued by the country they're fighting to defend.

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“I really don’t understand why Christians are always attacked.


Whoever said this needs to really think about the quote. There are Christians in this world who are really, truly being attacked - churches and homes burnt to the ground, persecuted, denied work, denied housing, harassed, arrested, tortured, even killed, them and their families, simply because they profess faith in Christ. *That's* being attacked, and this person's comment makes a whining mockery of the reality of Christian persecution in the world today.

This isn't a case of Christians being attacked, it's a case of them following the rules of military chaplaincy - rules which have been in place for many years, and rules that are absolutely correct. To be honest, the army chaplain who set up that permanent cross should be disciplined. The chaplain seems to have an unclear understanding of how to be true to his own faith and providing spiritual support to his fellow Christians, while also being a positive and helpful spiritual support to the rest of his unit.

Chaplains are there to be spiritual guides and supporters for all of their charges, not just the majority, and not just the ones whose particular faith the chaplain serves. That little premature baby whose funeral I officiated last week was christened "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" by a chaplain who is a Conservative Jewish rabbi, just a few hours before I came on duty and began to offer pastoral care to the family, and was with them when their little girl died.

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“We would just like to know where the line is.


The line is clear. Read the Army regs.

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"The chaplains wear different religious symbols on their uniforms depending on which religion they are. Is that the next thing to be targeted?” added a second service member.


Already been proposed.

http://www.christiancentury.org/article/2011-09/chaplains-push-uniform-religious-badges

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gallery_of_Proposed_U.S._Military_Chaplain_Insignias.jpg

"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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apple
one of the angels
i believe in being sensitive to one's environment.. that said, all they need do is decorate the front with many religious symbols from all faiths. that's what i would do.
it behooves me to behold
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
I think that's what most do - or they display movable symbols, set up at times appropriate for the particular faith. The hospital chapels I've been in and used have done the same thing.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
apple
Nov 24 2011, 07:14 AM
i believe in being sensitive to one's environment.. that said, all they need do is decorate the front with many religious symbols from all faiths. that's what i would do.
Sure. Then we can piss off EVERY oversensitive mug out there. :lol2:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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George K
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Finally
Mikhailoh
Nov 24 2011, 07:33 AM
Sure. Then we can piss off EVERY oversensitive mug out there. :lol2:
Would the Zoroastrians get a symbol?
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Sure why not, Zoro's have been around just as long if not longer than the Jooooses:

Posted Image

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
It always makes me laugh hearing American Christians complain about how they're discriminated against. They must be the first religious majority in history to be so badly treated.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
In the article it states that there are two mosques on base and the Jews have been using this chapel without complaint.

I hope our boys are fighting for Freedom. If one reads our constitution, it's freedom of, not freedom from. At this camp, we have adequately supplied meeting areas for all religions and if that wasn't accomadating enough, I'm sure additional areas would be provided.

The Cross stands at the center of Christianity, and those that don't like that can kiss my natural born, Southern-bred, ass.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
I really don't what the fuss is, Camp Marmal isn't even a US base:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Marmal#Military_Chaplaincy

It's not like the *godless* members of NATO stationed there shut down the chapel and turned it into a beer hall or bordello.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
In the article it states that there are two mosques on base and the Jews have been using this chapel without complaint.


"Camp Marmal is a German base that hosts NATO forces. The interfaith chapel in question is supervised by the U.S. Army."

It is the policy of the United States military to provide interfaith spiritual chaplains and chapels for its soldiers. What our other NATO allies running the base do is up to them.

Quote:
 
At this camp, we have adequately supplied meeting areas for all religions


Yes, we have - in one facility. It's the way we have for many, many years, under very clear rules understood by chaplains and soldiers alike. If the Bundeswehr opts to provide separate spiritual accommodations, that's their business, not ours.

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I hope our boys are fighting for Freedom. If one reads our constitution, it's freedom of, not freedom from.


Yes, and in this nation of the people, by the people, and for the people, freedom "of" religion means freedom "from" the imposition of other people's religious convictions on me. If I am Jewish, or Muslim, or Hindu, I have a right to not have a Christian symbol permanently affixed in the place of worship set up by the Army for my spiritual use. The United States has no official religion, and does not choose one religion over another in any special, endorsed, or preferred manner. And the United States military is made up of honorable fighting men and women of different faiths, and no specific religious faith, all of whom are fighting for our common Constitution and our common freedoms, one of which is freedom to freely practice one's religion - whichever religion that happens to be.

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The Cross stands at the center of Christianity


Indeed it does. In recognition of the meaning of the cross, I take up my cross every morning, and I don't do so lightly, since it comes with far more challenges than glory. But the cross does not stand at the center of the United States, or the center of the US Army, and it has no place being permanently affixed to a religious facility intended to accommodate all of our troops, not just the majority of them. Just because the cross stands at the center of Christianity, we do not have the right to force it onto the shoulders of those who do not want to carry it.

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and those that don't like that can kiss my natural born, Southern-bred, ass.


The nature and location of your ass' entry into the world has nothing to do with the matter. This issue is entirely about how a country of multiple faiths and a bedrock principle of religious tolerance provides for the spiritual needs of all of its military members in a fair manner and without endorsing any one faith over another. And those Christian soldiers who have made a big stink over this, as if it's some new policy and they're being dissed, need to suck it up and realize exactly what it is they're supposedly defending.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Since it's a German base, maybe one of these would be more appropriate:

Posted Image
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Dewey
Nov 24 2011, 05:31 PM
Quote:
 
In the article it states that there are two mosques on base and the Jews have been using this chapel without complaint.


"Camp Marmal is a German base that hosts NATO forces. The interfaith chapel in question is supervised by the U.S. Army."

It is the policy of the United States military to provide interfaith spiritual chaplains and chapels for its soldiers. What our other NATO allies running the base do is up to them.

Quote:
 
At this camp, we have adequately supplied meeting areas for all religions


Yes, we have - in one facility. It's the way we have for many, many years, under very clear rules understood by chaplains and soldiers alike. If the Bundeswehr opts to provide separate spiritual accommodations, that's their business, not ours.

Quote:
 
I hope our boys are fighting for Freedom. If one reads our constitution, it's freedom of, not freedom from.


Yes, and in this nation of the people, by the people, and for the people, freedom "of" religion means freedom "from" the imposition of other people's religious convictions on me. If I am Jewish, or Muslim, or Hindu, I have a right to not have a Christian symbol permanently affixed in the place of worship set up by the Army for my spiritual use. The United States has no official religion, and does not choose one religion over another in any special, endorsed, or preferred manner. And the United States military is made up of honorable fighting men and women of different faiths, and no specific religious faith, all of whom are fighting for our common Constitution and our common freedoms, one of which is freedom to freely practice one's religion - whichever religion that happens to be.

Quote:
 
The Cross stands at the center of Christianity


Indeed it does. In recognition of the meaning of the cross, I take up my cross every morning, and I don't do so lightly, since it comes with far more challenges than glory. But the cross does not stand at the center of the United States, or the center of the US Army, and it has no place being permanently affixed to a religious facility intended to accommodate all of our troops, not just the majority of them. Just because the cross stands at the center of Christianity, we do not have the right to force it onto the shoulders of those who do not want to carry it.

Quote:
 
and those that don't like that can kiss my natural born, Southern-bred, ass.


The nature and location of your ass' entry into the world has nothing to do with the matter. This issue is entirely about how a country of multiple faiths and a bedrock principle of religious tolerance provides for the spiritual needs of all of its military members in a fair manner and without endorsing any one faith over another. And those Christian soldiers who have made a big stink over this, as if it's some new policy and they're being dissed, need to suck it up and realize exactly what it is they're supposedly defending.
Then prithee, why do the Muslims have seperate facilities?

Shouldn't they have to worship in the interfaith chapel, just like everyone else?

Secondly, I'm not knocking any man in a combat zone who picks up a weapon and lays his life on the line. You cannot let other faiths have everything and tolerate nothing for those men and women who believe in Christ.

At some some point, toleration is a most blatant form of discrimination.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Sticking a permanent cross on an inter-faith chapel sounds a bit insensitive to me, unless they also stick up all the other various symbols.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
Then prithee, why do the Muslims have seperate facilities?


Apparently, because the German military has a policy of providing separate religious facilities for various faiths. The United States does not.

Quote:
 
Shouldn't they have to worship in the interfaith chapel, just like everyone else?


When on a U.S. base, the Muslim soldiers in our armed forces do exactly that. In fact, they even do at the Pentagon.

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Secondly, I'm not knocking any man in a combat zone who picks up a weapon and lays his life on the line. You cannot let other faiths have everything and tolerate nothing for those men and women who believe in Christ.


Letting other faiths "have everything" and "tolerating nothing" for Christian soldiers would be exemplified by permanently and exclusively affixing a star of David, or a Muslim crescent, on or in the same chapel, and its being present during a Christian worship service. That isn't what's happening here; in fact, obviously, the exact opposite is what was happening, and what has correctly been stopped. To "tolerate nothing" for the Christians would be to prohibit them from using the cross, in a non-permanent display, during their worship services.

Further, it is not a necessary part of practicing the Christian faith to have a cross permanently affixed to the military chapel. For that matter, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of Christian churches in our country which worship every Sunday in rented facilities in schools, theaters, storefronts, libraries, even pubs - all of which bring in the necessary equipment and signs of the faith, set them up, and break them down, take them out, and store them offsite until the next worship service.

Finally, I seriously doubt that all Christians using that army chapel have any issue at all with the removal of the permanently-affixed cross. Most, I suspect, actually see it as being a more proper way for the chapel to do its actual duty.

Quote:
 
At some some point, toleration is a most blatant form of discrimination.


Yes. And the army chaplain's toleration of the Christians in his care became a blatant form of discrimination against those in his care of other faiths.

This is not a case of Christians being discriminated against; it's a case of a minority of Christian soldiers who have a skewed understanding of the nature of our Constitution and the underlying principles of our nation, as well as a skewed understanding of the tenets of their own professed religious faith.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
This is most definitely a case of discrimination, since not everyone is being treated the same.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
On the contrary, everyone is being treated the same by the U.S. Army. I wonder if the German army has its own separate Christian chapel, with a permanently affixed cross. If not, you should complain that they, not we, are discriminating. And if they do, I suppose those Christians who have their panties in a wad because their cross isn't permanently on display at the multifaith chapel, providing an official endorsement of their faith over others by the U.S. government, could go worship over there.

This isn't discrimination, it's a bunch of whining crybabies who have missed an important part of the real meaning of taking up the cross they claim they're so worked up about - and an army chaplain who doesn't understand his role, and who should be replaced with one who does.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Dewey
Nov 24 2011, 06:33 PM
On the contrary, everyone is being treated the same by the U.S. Army. I wonder if the German army has its own separate Christian chapel, with a permanently affixed cross. If not, you should complain that they, not we, are discriminating. And if they do, I suppose those Christians who have their panties in a wad because their cross isn't permanently on display at the multifaith chapel, providing an official endorsement of their faith over others by the U.S. government, could go worship over there.

This isn't discrimination, it's a bunch of whining crybabies who have missed an important part of the real meaning of taking up the cross they claim they're so worked up about - and an army chaplain who doesn't understand his role, and who should be replaced with one who does.
Or a Presbyterian minister so blinded by what he considers Justice, that he errs on the side of those who would mock anything Christian.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
Or a Presbyterian minister so blinded by what he considers Justice, that he errs on the side of those who would mock anything Christian.


I'm not blinded, Jolly, I just understand what the Christian faith is all about, and what our country is all about, and I don't confuse the two.

The decision to remove the permanently-affixed cross was not made by people who "mock anything Christian." It is a wise, and Constitutional - and frankly, also a Christian - decision to reach; made by the Army Chaplain Corps - the vast majority of whom are Christian, just like you and me.

It is not the place of the United States government or any of its branches to offer favored treatment of any religion over another. And it is not the role of an army chaplain to unilaterally decide to permanently set up the sign of one religious faith to the exclusion of others. To do so is not only unconstitutional, it is also a dereliction of his particular ministry to not promote his particular faith over that of other faiths of soldiers under his care.

As far as justice is concerned, that's a very important aspect of both our nation's, and our faith's, underlying principles and teachings; and yes, I take justice very seriously for both reasons. I know what the cross represents and what it calls us to - and it isn't jumping up and down demanding favored treatment at others' expense, and squealing like a stuck pig when you don't get it.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
The Invisible War has gone on for centuries.

Sometimes more so, sometimes less so, but the battle rages on. It seems to be picking up speed, though.

When Faith is mocked by Tebowing, one faintly hears the clash of sword on shield. When preachers no longer believe the Bible is true, a rain of arrows fall. When the most essential representation of Christiandom is rationalized away as just another offending symbol, one can listen closely and hear the pounding of cloven hooves and the metallic rattle of armor.

Is it getting closer to the End of Days? No man knows, not I, or anyone else.

But I'd rather fall where I stand, eyes forward and lance planted firmly, than to give another inch over a non-existent grievance. Perhaps you liken it to the squealing of a pig. Or perhaps it's just the squealing of a demon that doesn't let you hear what's happening around you.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
The Invisible War has gone on for centuries. Sometimes more so, sometimes less so, but the battle rages on.


Indeed, it does.

Quote:
 
When preachers no longer believe the Bible is true, a rain of arrows fall.


Do you think that I'm a preacher who doesn't believe the Bible is true? If so, shame on you. That's not worthy of a response.

Quote:
 
When the most essential representation of Christiandom is rationalized away as just another offending symbol, one can listen closely and hear the pounding of cloven hooves and the metallic rattle of armor.


Jolly, you're jumping to wild conclusions. The cross, permanently affixed to a multifaith military chapel, is very much an offensive thing. It's completely contrary to Christian values of being respectful to people of other faith, and treating them in the same manner in which we would want to be treated. It's also completely contrary to longstanding military regulations regarding military chaplaincy - not to mention that whole First Amendment thing.

No one is "rationalizing away" the sign of the cross. They are only pointing out - correctly - that it's improper to display it permanently on the front of a multifaith US military chapel - paid for by taxes paid by Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, and other U.S. taxpayers, and established to serve the fighting men and women of all of those faiths.

Quote:
 
But I'd rather fall where I stand, eyes forward and lance planted firmly, than to give another inch over a non-existent grievance.


It is not for you to determine whether someone else's grievance is legitimate. And what you're not willing to "give another inch" over, is demanding the right for your faith to receive special recognition and treatment over the faith of your fellow soldiers. And that's just dead wrong - it isn't anything noble, it isn't a sign of dedication to one's own faith - and it's definitely not a battle to die for, even metaphorically.

In this case, it isn't even a matter of determining the legitimacy of a grievance, it's simply a matter of violating military policy. As I've said before, the chaplain who did this should be disciplined, and possibly have to go through retraining to determine his fitness as a military chaplain, possibly even bouncing from the Chaplain Corps entirely.

Quote:
 
Perhaps you liken it to the squealing of a pig. Or perhaps it's just the squealing of a demon that doesn't let you hear what's happening around you.


Well, let me cock my ear and listen again...... yeah, I still hear a squealing pig. There's no discrimination here, only fair and equal treatment, and equal tolerance and respect for the religious faith of all our soldiers.

What's happening around me is that Christianity - more accurately, a nationalized, toothless, watered-down, culturally palatable version of Christianity - is continually losing the unofficial sanction or preference given it within our government. "Christendom" - the melding of the Christian faith and the state, giving Christianity (or some particular tradition within Christianity) either official or unofficial mandate, sanction, preference, or even funding, over any or all other religious expressions - is drawing to a close. It's completely gone in many areas, and is almost gone in most others. And that's actually a very, very good thing. Nothing in the history of the faith has done more damage and harm to the faith. When the state endorses Christianity, Christianity gets diluted, fat, compromised, perverted. Good riddance to the old system. I'll take Christianity over Christendom, any day of the week.

But that's a deeper and broader discussion than this news story merits. This is really just a non-story about a handful of crybabies and a misbehaving chaplain.

"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Dewey, that is disgusting.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Whether you're disgusted at my words is a matter of subjective feeling. What I've written, though, is objective fact:

1. Military chapels are multifaith centers of spiritual nurture for soldiers of all religious faiths, and even no particular religious tradition. The signs of no single religious faith may be exclusively, permanently mounted on or in them, because to do so would be to give preferential treatment or endorsement of that faith tradition over others.

2. Military chaplains are not to favor their own particular religious faith over others as they provide spiritual care to all of the soldiers in their care; to do so is to violate the Constitution, longstanding military regulations, and professional spiritual and ethical guidelines and training for all chaplains (military or otherwise).

3. The Church is at its most corrupt - spiritually, morally, and theologically - when it is endorsed, supported, and/or funded by, the official state government. Historically, the Church has always been a more clear witness to Christ and the actual tenets of the faith when it has not had that sanction and corrupting influence.

What part of what I've written disgusts you?
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
1. Military chapels are multifaith centers of spiritual nurture for soldiers of all religious faiths


A relatively recent thing thanks to the kind of weak kneed, politically correct, spiritually dead nonsense that you are now using to justify it.

Quote:
 
2. Military chaplains are not to favor their own particular religious faith over others as they provide spiritual care to all of the soldiers in their care; to do so is to violate the Constitution, longstanding military regulations, and professional spiritual and ethical guidelines and training for all chaplains (military or otherwise).

Long standing? You think????? How may f*cking mosques do you think they put up in Korea? Vietnam? Long standing??? You're out of your mind, guy.

Quote:
 
3. The Church is at its most corrupt - spiritually, morally, and theologically - when it is endorsed, supported, and/or funded by, the official state government.


No, the Church is at its most corrupt when it has the kind of self serving nonsense you just attempted to justify coming out of the pulpits. This isn't a case of government endorsing, supporting, or funding anything. This is a case of soldiers wanting it, and thanks to the politically correct and the spiritually pussified, they can no longer have it.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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