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The Teflon Icon
Topic Started: Jul 26 2011, 06:45 PM (321 Views)
Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
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http://www.neh.gov/news/humanities/2011-07/RobertELee.html
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
I think of Lee much the same as I think of Rommel (who was a better general): I admire most of their personal qualities, but cannot forgive the fact that they fought for the wrong side, and am very glad they lost.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Red Rice
Jul 26 2011, 06:53 PM
I think of Lee much the same as I think of Rommel (who was a better general): I admire most of their personal qualities, but cannot forgive the fact that they fought for the wrong side, and am very glad they lost.
Seriously?

I really can't bring myself to think of the Civil War in those terms. The South had some very legitimate gripes during that time, and ideologically I can understand some of the North's perspective. Also I think more than a few soldiers on both sides were simply fighting for their homes.

Grey and blue for me I guess, not really black and white.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Aqua Letifer
Jul 28 2011, 11:42 PM
Red Rice
Jul 26 2011, 06:53 PM
I think of Lee much the same as I think of Rommel (who was a better general): I admire most of their personal qualities, but cannot forgive the fact that they fought for the wrong side, and am very glad they lost.
Seriously?

I really can't bring myself to think of the Civil War in those terms. The South had some very legitimate gripes during that time, and ideologically I can understand some of the North's perspective. Also I think more than a few soldiers on both sides were simply fighting for their homes.

Grey and blue for me I guess, not really black and white.
I basically agree with that. The concept of what it means to be an American, and where one's proper loyalties lay, were considerably different in antebellum American -- these United States.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Jul 28 2011, 11:42 PM
Seriously?

I really can't bring myself to think of the Civil War in those terms. The South had some very legitimate gripes during that time, and ideologically I can understand some of the North's perspective. Also I think more than a few soldiers on both sides were simply fighting for their homes.

Grey and blue for me I guess, not really black and white.
Yep, seriously.

Each side had their own legitimate and personal reasons for fighting, but the overall cause that each side fought for does make it a black and white issue for me, and I'm quite convinced the right side prevailed.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
The South had a legitimate issue in their arguments regarding states' rights. Unfortunately, they used the argument to try to extend states' rights to justify that which should never be justified or legal in the eyes of either state or federal union, the enslavement of other human beings, and it was good and right that they lost in their attempt to do so. In their attempt to claim the cause for war was states' rights, and not slavery - or their incorrect use of states' rights to justify slavery - the whole legitimate and very important issue of states' rights became one of the most significant casualties of the war, and we've been living with what are often the unfortunate results of that ever since.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
Well said, Dewey. I also agree that the cause of states' rights was damaged by the South's attempt to use it to justify slavery. Even the South realized that a defense of slavery alone was untenable on moral grounds. And given how many of the South's politicians and newspapers wanted to force the Northern states to censor the abolitionists, one wonders how true the South's devotion to states' rights really was.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
I'm sure they had a legitimate devotion to the idea of states' rights, but I doubt that they'd have gone to war over the abstract political concept. Slavery was the actual cause of the war, protests of some notwithstanding. Without the existence of slavery and the perceived need to preserve it, the war would never have been fought.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Yes and no.

While I would agree that slavery was the major reason the war was fought, do not underestimate the sentiments of the population of the South at that time. Lots of Scotch and Irish, lots of I'll-be-damned-if-you-tell-me-what-to-do stubborness throughout the region.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly, it took you a lot longer to reply than I expected. You must have been very busy. ^_^
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Somewhat.

It's Fifth Sunday at church this weekend and you know what that means....or you may not...

It's a community tradition on Fifth Sunday to call preaching services for Sunday night, and have a music service. Many times, several of the churchs will band together.

I was really looking forward to the Free Methodists dropping by, they have some very musical folks, some of who've done a bit of work in Nashville. Sadly, their Minister of Music is getting on in years and he's starting to behave a bit like a crabby old man...he wasn't going to call their services nor issue an invitation to Fifth Sunday from the Baptists down the road...

And then God stepped in.

His sister died today and her body won't be ready to wake until Sunday afternoon, which means the Methodists can't have Sunday night service at their church, not with the casket blocking the altar. So I suspect several of them will wander on down the road and help us make a joyful noise.

Being Baptists, we eat whenever three of us gather under one roof. My wife and I are providing the food. Hope they like chicken salad sandwiches, pimento cheese sandwiches, ice cream and pound cake.

I don't want to haul any back home, the dogs are fat enough.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
We also have a music service for "Fifth Sundays," but it isn't multi-congregational and we don't add an evening service. I'd actually forgotten this was a fifth Sunday, had all but completed the bulletin, and was halfway through the sermon before my music director reminded me of it. So, as I said earlier today on FB, I'll just tuck my thoughts about Jacob and his mysterious all-night wrestling match into a folder for future use.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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