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Government Social Programs; have you used one?
Topic Started: Jul 15 2011, 08:44 PM (252 Views)
Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Here the question (for US persons only):

If I ask you whether you have ever used a government social program, what would you say?

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I came across a 2008 Cornell University study on how many beneficiaries of government programs do not realize (or do not acknowledge) that they were using government programs.

It's incredulous to see that more than half of those who have used a government-backed student loans say that they have never used a government program. 44% of Social Security benefit recipients say the same thing, as do 40% of Medicare subscribers. (Wouldn't have been as surprised to hear "get your government hands off my Medicare" had I see this statistics earlier.)

Link to Cornell's article: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/March11/MettlerGov.html

Nice chart from the article:
Posted Image

The ones in red are quite clearly "government social programs" in my mind. The ones in blue, not so much, except (government backed) student loans, those look quite unambiguously as "government social programs" to me, with 529-plans being the borderline case.

What about you?
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garrett2
Junior Carp
For the most part, I think I agree with you Ax. I don't typically view a "Tax Credit" to be equal to a Government run social program.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
I guess the blue ones are programs, specifically tax expenditures, and they're done largely for social engineering purposes. But I would forgive someone for not considering their 529 account a 'government social program'.

A tax credit (as opposed to deduction) is far more obviously a transfer program. It is literally the government paying for something for you, rather than just considering the money you paid to be not subject to tax.


Question - if 529s are there, why not 401k or IRAs?
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Social Security is and it ain't.

One's own money helps fund the payout.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Jul 16 2011, 12:52 AM
Question - if 529s are there, why not 401k or IRAs?
Have the same question myself.
I'd categorize 529 and 401k and IRA (and variants thereof) the same way.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Jul 16 2011, 04:38 AM
Social Security is and it ain't.

One's own money helps fund the payout.
Same for Medicare, and same can be argued for unemployment benefits.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
The 529s and 401ks and IRAs are in the grey area and can be argued either way. That's nor surprising.

What's surprising, and the main point, is that many Social Security recipients and Medicare subscribers and Veteran Benefits and G.I. Bill beneficiaries etc. (those in "red" in the charts) and (government backed) student loan debtors do NOT know that they have used government social programs.

IMO, that's plain ignorance (if not denial).
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Copper
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Shortstop

Yes, ignorance on the government's part for giving this money to people who don't even know they are getting it.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Tax credits are NOT government welfare programs!

Ugh! income based taxes enforced under penalty of financial ruin and or loss of liberty are simple extortion. To play the game that the government has set up to get back that which is rightfully yours in the first place is not participation in a government welfare program.

It's a bunch of BS that needs to stop.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
Jul 16 2011, 07:15 AM
Tax credits are NOT government welfare programs!
In principle, I agree with you.

Now how about refundable tax credit?

(Just to be clear, "refundable tax credits" means tax credits that you get full amounts of. If your total tax liability is below the sum of those credits' full amounts, you get cash refund from the government for the difference.)

Do you consider that government welfare, government subsidy, or neither?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
"social programs" and "welfare" seems to be rather amorphous categories. The Library of Congress is a social program. Everything the government legitimately does is a social program. The government can only legitimately act to promote the welfare of the people. It's a meaningless question.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
ivorythumper
Jul 16 2011, 08:59 AM
"social programs" and "welfare" seems to be rather amorphous categories. The Library of Congress is a social program. Everything the government legitimately does is a social program. The government can only legitimately act to promote the welfare of the people. It's a meaningless question.
+1. I don't see the point. If you're going to include student loans then you might as well include everyone who went to public school.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Jul 16 2011, 09:40 PM
If you're going to include student loans then you might as well include everyone who went to public school.
Yes, a sensible critique.

The difference is the use of state/federal funds. If one only attended public schools entirely funded by municipality revenue/property taxes, one can legitimately claim that one has not benefited from any federal/state social program as far as school attendance is concerned. One can further exclude certain special programs run by public schools depending on whether such programs receive state/federal money.

Similarly, if one takes out private loans for the purpose of education (not backed/guaranteed by federal/state government) or accept private scholarship/financial aid moneys, one can legitimately claim that one has not benefited from any federal/state social program as far as student loan/scholarship/financial money is concerned.

But the use of federal or state government-backed student loan money is quite clearly and unambiguously a benefit from federal or state government social program in my mind.

As such, I maintain that use of federally backed student loan is, in fact, use of a federal government social program, and I further admit that attendance of public schools funded by federal money is also use of a federal government social program (adjust for special program exclusion as appropriate).
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Axtremus
Jul 16 2011, 10:51 PM
The difference is the use of state/federal funds....

Ahh but your question was:

If I ask you whether you have ever used a government social program, what would you say?

You did not draw the distinction until now.

And as for student loans, college students now have very little choice in receiving government aid, if they need a loan to go to college. Since student loans are entirely government-run, if you go to a bank and try to negotiate a loan with them the first thing they're going to do is direct you to the Department of Education.

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As such, I maintain that use of federally backed student loan is, in fact, use of a federal government social program, and I further admit that attendance of public schools funded by federal money is also use of a federal government social program (adjust for special program exclusion as appropriate).


Okay. I just don't see the point in all this. As IT suggested, you could make the argument that anything the government does is a social program. That doesn't mean the receivers of those programs have anything in common to Welfare or Medicaid recipients.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Jul 16 2011, 10:56 PM
Axtremus
Jul 16 2011, 10:51 PM
The difference is the use of state/federal funds....

Ahh but your question was:

If I ask you whether you have ever used a government social program, what would you say?

You did not draw the distinction until now.
True. That distinction was called out to address why there may be a legitimate qualitative difference between "government backed student loans" and "public schools" (as commonly implemented in the US) in this discussion.

Quote:
 
And as for student loans, college students now have very little choice in receiving government aid, if they need a loan to go to college. Since student loans are entirely government-run, if you go to a bank and try to negotiate a loan with them the first thing they're going to do is direct you to the Department of Education.
Yes, but one can always try to take out a private loan, or do part-time work-study, or not pursue the education that one cannot afford without taking a government backed student loan.

As an aside: If one has no other option than to take a government backed load to fulfill a genuine need, that implies that the private sector has failed to address that genuine need, and that it is therefore vital for the government to step in to fulfill that genuine need. To cut/defund that government function is to cut/defund the government's ability to fulfill that genuine need.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Axtremus
Jul 16 2011, 11:27 PM
Yes, but one can always try to take out a private loan, or do part-time work-study, or not pursue the education that one cannot afford without taking a government backed student loan.

Uh, no. I was quite literal with my example. Most banks do not want you to take out a student loan through them, if you have already not gone through the Department of Education and received their student aid first. Ask around. As for part-time work-study, do you realize what kind of a joke that is to many students? Not everyone can do that. In fact I'd say most can't. As for not pursuing education one cannot afford, how smart is that? Education is about the best investment you can make, and the extra income earned after graduation more than makes up for the loans used to pay for it. That the government now runs the program is incidental.

Quote:
 
As an aside: If one has no other option than to take a government backed load to fulfill a genuine need, that implies that the private sector has failed to address that genuine need, and that it is therefore vital for the government to step in to fulfill that genuine need. To cut/defund that government function is to cut/defund the government's ability to fulfill that genuine need.


No, no it doesn't. What it implies is that the federal government has taken it upon itself to supply the funding, and the decision was not at all on account of any failure of the private sector.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Jul 16 2011, 11:35 PM
... Most banks do not want you to take out a student loan through them, if you have already not gone through the Department of Education and received their student aid first.
Yeah, that's "the private sector failing to fulfill a need."

Aqua Letifer
 
As for part-time work-study, do you realize what kind of a joke that is to many students? Not everyone can do that. In fact I'd say most can't. As for not pursuing education one cannot afford, how smart is that? Education is about the best investment you can make, and the extra income earned after graduation more than makes up for the loans used to pay for it.
Yeah, that says that the need is "genuine."

Aqua Letifer
 
Ask around. That the government now runs the program is incidental.
Regardless of whether it's "incidental," it's serving a "genuine need" not adequately served by the private sector.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Axtremus
Jul 16 2011, 11:41 PM
Aqua Letifer
Jul 16 2011, 11:35 PM
... Most banks do not want you to take out a student loan through them, if you have already not gone through the Department of Education and received their student aid first.
Yeah, that's "the private sector failing to fulfill a need."


You have serious problems following along. They say this now, after the DoE stepped up and supplied the funding themselves. Before that time (just 2 or so years ago) they were the ones doling out the loans. It's an arrangement both the banks and the federal government worked on together. You used to get the loans by using a bank as in intermediary between you and the government. Now the DoE has cut out the middle man, and the reason for this has nothing to do with the private sector's "failure" of anything.

Quote:
 
Aqua Letifer
 
As for part-time work-study, do you realize what kind of a joke that is to many students? Not everyone can do that. In fact I'd say most can't. As for not pursuing education one cannot afford, how smart is that? Education is about the best investment you can make, and the extra income earned after graduation more than makes up for the loans used to pay for it.
Yeah, that says that the need is "genuine."


That's not a "genuine need." Air is a genuine need. Going to college is merely a good idea.

Quote:
 
Aqua Letifer
 
Ask around. That the government now runs the program is incidental.
Regardless of whether it's "incidental," it's serving a "genuine need" not adequately served by the private sector.


It's not adequately served by the private sector because the federal government runs the program now, how dense can you be? Do you also see great "failure" in the private sector in providing fire departments and police precincts?
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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