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Otto von Habsburg, 1912-2011
Topic Started: Jul 4 2011, 08:59 PM (1,045 Views)
ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Dewey
Jul 6 2011, 01:07 PM
your implication that catholics are in some way more interested in supporting families is beyond silly.

you apparently never studied Catholic social doctrine.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
And it is pretty silly you getting all splenetic over "garbage" arguments


Yes, I'm going to get splenetic over garbage like calling me a racist.

In this thread, you have:

Tried to make this a Catholic versus Protestant issue instead of a political one;
Tried to imply that by definition, Catholics are in some way inherently more pro-family than Protestants;
Tried to make support of this idea some sort of litmus test for being pro-family; and
Made a really slimy assertion that I'm a racist.

In addition, in the midst of your trying to make this some sort of Catholic versus Protestant brawl, you've once again engaged in your childish and insulting refusal to capitalize the word "Protestant." You've explained in the past that this is correct, since Protestants are not all under one authority, and therefore can't be discussed as a group and the term doesn't deserve the respect of being considered a proper noun. I'm not sure where you came up with this attitude, but I can tell you that even that rabidly anti-Protestant, William Donohue of the Catholic League, offers Protestants the courtesy and respect of capitalizing the term. And far more instructive to you, official documents coming out of the Vatican itself capitalizes the term when referring to Protestants.

And all the while, you're accusing me of making this some kind of theological issue, when it is you, not me, who injected religion into the thread.

Until you back off your claims that I'm racist; and that Catholics are inherently more supportive of families than Protestants; and that this particular concept is a litmus test for being supportive of families and children; and until you are willing to grit your teeth and offer Protestants the simple courtesy and respect of capitalizing the term in accordance with the practice of your own church's leadership; you're welcome to talk to yourself. It just isn't worth the effort, or the aggravation, to try to have a conversation with someone who's that unwilling to assume the integrity, character, or intent of the other.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Well I think it's a bloody stupid idea, and I don't have any theology.

Honestly, the thought of giving some randy Irish drunk 12 votes - the country would be bloody ruined within a generation.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
You racist bastard.

:rolleyes:
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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George K
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Finally
Dewey
Jul 6 2011, 02:15 PM
You racist bastard.

:rolleyes:
Wait.

I thought I was the racist around here.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
No, it's D'Oh and his blatant Eireophobia. What a wanker.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Dewey
Jul 6 2011, 02:07 PM
Quote:
 
And it is pretty silly you getting all splenetic over "garbage" arguments


Yes, I'm going to get splenetic over garbage like calling me a racist.

In this thread, you have:

Tried to make this a Catholic versus Protestant issue instead of a political one;
Tried to imply that by definition, Catholics are in some way inherently more pro-family than Protestants;
Tried to make support of this idea some sort of litmus test for being pro-family; and
Made a really slimy assertion that I'm a racist.
No, I just pointed out the implicitly racist background to the argument you made, and gave you corrective information about it. You ignored that corrective information (presumably since it dismantled your entire argument about education and family size). As I said, I wouldn't make a public policy argument on race, nor would you I would hope.
Quote:
 

In addition, in the midst of your trying to make this some sort of Catholic versus Protestant brawl, you've once again engaged in your childish and insulting refusal to capitalize the word "Protestant." You've explained in the past that this is correct, since Protestants are not all under one authority, and therefore can't be discussed as a group and the term doesn't deserve the respect of being considered a proper noun. I'm not sure where you came up with this attitude, but I can tell you that even that rabidly anti-Protestant, William Donohue of the Catholic League, offers Protestants the courtesy and respect of capitalizing the term. And far more instructive to you, official documents coming out of the Vatican itself capitalizes the term when referring to Protestants.

Now you're just being pissy and assuming bad intention. I meant no such offense, and in the past we have both used lower-case 'c' and 'p' and capital 'C' and 'P' without concern. You seem intent on taking offense where none is intended.
Quote:
 

And all the while, you're accusing me of making this some kind of theological issue, when it is you, not me, who injected religion into the thread.
Matters of family and political order are in themselves deeply religious. It is not unreasonable to assume that essential theological or secular worldviews would profoundly and even unknowingly affect our preconceptions about other things -- it is not without reason that the analogies of family, paternity, household, society, and political order form the basis of Christian theological symbolism.
Quote:
 

Until you back off your claims that I'm racist; and that Catholics are inherently more supportive of families than Protestants; and that this particular concept is a litmus test for being supportive of families and children; and until you are willing to grit your teeth and offer Protestants the simple courtesy and respect of capitalizing the term in accordance with the practice of your own church's leadership; you're welcome to talk to yourself. It just isn't worth the effort, or the aggravation, to try to have a conversation with someone who's that unwilling to assume the integrity, character, or intent of the other.
I don't think you're a racist, Dewey -- as far as I know you serve in a predominantly black congregation. My only point was that your arguments took some fundamental presuppositions about class, race, privilege, educational achievement and family size to make an argument against the idea of universal suffrage, that set in the historical contingencies of the US voting developments have racially energized implications.

As for the question of the Catholic vs Protestant view of the family, I think the matter of abortion acceptance and contraception acceptance and divorce acceptance in the official teachings of many of the Protestant churches vs the Catholic Church speak to the validity of my position, so I will certainly not retract in some false irenicism. I know there are some excellent pro-family and pro-life Protestant and Evangelical groups out there, but I think that you do need to acknowledge that the theological foundations of the Catholic view of marriage and family life, as well as sexuality in general, admit of strong distinctions from the Protestant ones. That is demonstrated quite obviously in your belief that homosexuals can marry, and that you believe such view is entirely supported by Scripture.

I don't think of this idea of universal suffrage as a litmus test at all -- but if we are intent on truly empowering families in the political order, it seems a reasonable topic for discussion. I was kind of surprised at your summary dismissal of the idea, and then your increasingly fallacious arguments against it. You came out swinging wildly, in my estimation, and I engaged that on your own terms.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
No, the terms you chose to conduct yourself with in this thread are entirely your own.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Dewey
Jul 6 2011, 02:07 PM
Made a really slimy assertion that I'm a racist.
We can settle this one...


Hey George, do you ever see Dewey at the meetings?



:whome:

:leaving:




:sombrero:




In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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George K
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Finally
jon-nyc
Jul 6 2011, 04:21 PM
Hey George, do you ever see Dewey at the meetings?
:lol2:
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Dewey
Jul 6 2011, 02:07 PM
You've explained in the past that this is correct, since Protestants are not all under one authority, and therefore can't be discussed as a group and the term doesn't deserve the respect of being considered a proper noun. I'm not sure where you came up with this attitude, but I can tell you that even that rabidly anti-Protestant, William Donohue of the Catholic League, offers Protestants the courtesy and respect of capitalizing the term. And far more instructive to you, official documents coming out of the Vatican itself capitalizes the term when referring to Protestants.
BTW, Dewey, I don't ever recall making that argument -- it is not even familiar to me. Do you have me confused with someone else? :shrug:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Dewey
Jul 6 2011, 03:37 PM
No, the terms you chose to conduct yourself with in this thread are entirely your own.
As are yours. So?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
IT, I'm simulatneously begging and warning you, stop right now.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Sure Dewey -- but you said things about my purported beliefs regarding Protestants that I don't even recognize, and yet you vociferously hold them against me. Either you are correct or not. If I had written anything of the sort I would want to know since it is an accusation. There is no basis for any sort of relationship without justice, which precedes charity.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
BTW, Dewey, I don't ever recall making that argument -- it is not even familiar to me. Do you have me confused with someone else?


Yes, IT, you made precisely that argument in a thread several years ago. You, and no one else. You were going on and on, contrasting "protestants" and "Catholics," and were continuously not capitalizing the word Protestant. It happened so many times that it was obviously not a simple typo, and I questioned you about it. What I summarized in this thread was your argument - whereas the Catholic church is a single, recognized organization under one control, it should be capitalized; but since there are a large number of Protestants, without any single unifying structure or control, it could not be discussed as a single group, and therefore didn't deserve to be capitalized the same way as the Roman Catholic church. The conversation even went on for a few days, as, in response to your refusal to capitalize Protestant, I did the exact opposite, captializing Protestant but not the word Catholic - as I did earlier in this thread.
Frankly, it was one of the the most inane and insulting arguments I ever heard, which is why it stuck in my mind all this time. Whether you remember or recognize it is a matter best taken up with your primary care physician, not me - but you most definitely made it.

Again - stop now.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Dewey
Jul 6 2011, 05:53 PM
Quote:
 
BTW, Dewey, I don't ever recall making that argument -- it is not even familiar to me. Do you have me confused with someone else?


Yes, IT, you made precisely that argument in a thread several years ago. You, and no one else. You were going on and on, contrasting "protestants" and "Catholics," and were continuously not capitalizing the word Protestant. It happened so many times that it was obviously not a simple typo, and I questioned you about it. What I summarized in this thread was your argument - whereas the Catholic church is a single, recognized organization under one control, it should be capitalized; but since there are a large number of Protestants, without any single unifying structure or control, it could not be discussed as a single group, and therefore didn't deserve to be capitalized the same way as the Roman Catholic church. The conversation even went on for a few days, as, in response to your refusal to capitalize Protestant, I did the exact opposite, captializing Protestant but not the word Catholic - as I did earlier in this thread.
Frankly, it was one of the the most inane and insulting arguments I ever heard, which is why it stuck in my mind all this time. Whether you remember or recognize it is a matter best taken up with your primary care physician, not me - but you most definitely made it.

Again - stop now.
I spent some time searching for it and did not find it, Dewey. -- keywords "protestant"' "capitalize" "lower case"", etc.... I am sure that is your memory, but I have found no record of it. Which is precisely why I asked.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
The Economists' obit:

http://www.economist.com/node/18956124

In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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