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Otto von Habsburg, 1912-2011
Topic Started: Jul 4 2011, 08:59 PM (1,046 Views)
ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
The Habsburg Funeral ritual.



I met him briefly at a conference in England in 1990. May he rest in peace.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
I met him in England in 1990 -- he gave a talk on the family as the basis of society. A brilliant idea of his was to give ALL citizens voting rights -- entrusting the votes of male children to the father and female children to the mother until majority -- thus ensuring the political power of the family.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
NYT obit:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/world/europe/05hapsburg.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Otto%20von%20hapsburg&st=cse
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
A brilliant idea of his was to give ALL citizens voting rights -- entrusting the votes of male children to the father and female children to the mother until majority -- thus ensuring the political power of the family.


Um, yeah, why am I thinking this would be something a whole lot less than brilliant? I hope I'm just not awake enough for me to pick up on it, and you're being sarcastic here.

"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
A typically Machiavellian Roman Catholic plot for world domination.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Dewey
Jul 5 2011, 03:42 AM
Quote:
 
A brilliant idea of his was to give ALL citizens voting rights -- entrusting the votes of male children to the father and female children to the mother until majority -- thus ensuring the political power of the family.


Um, yeah, why am I thinking this would be something a whole lot less than brilliant? I hope I'm just not awake enough for me to pick up on it, and you're being sarcastic here.

... and entrusting the votes of orphans to the board of trustees/directors of their orphanages.

(Just responding to the bits quoted by Dewey. I don't know who Hapsburg is and I have bone to pick with him; may he rest in peace.)
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Axtremus
Jul 5 2011, 04:38 AM
Dewey
Jul 5 2011, 03:42 AM
Quote:
 
A brilliant idea of his was to give ALL citizens voting rights -- entrusting the votes of male children to the father and female children to the mother until majority -- thus ensuring the political power of the family.


Um, yeah, why am I thinking this would be something a whole lot less than brilliant? I hope I'm just not awake enough for me to pick up on it, and you're being sarcastic here.

... and entrusting the votes of orphans to the board of trustees/directors of their orphanages.

(Just responding to the bits quoted by Dewey. I don't know who Hapsburg is and I have bone to pick with him; may he rest in peace.)
No, sorry, not at all. We've all but destroyed this country by having individuals voting to grant themselves entitlements to other people's wealth, and other examples of democracy devolving into mob rule. It would only be worse if, in essence, we gave more weight to the votes of those who have even more incentive to transfer even more of other people's resources to themselves. I don't believe that someone's choice to have a larger family - or in the worst case, who is not intelligent or responsible enough to avoid having one - is any criterion for making their vote worth more than mine, or their right to distribute other people's resources in ways they consider appropriate any more just.

"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Dewey
Jul 5 2011, 06:01 AM
Axtremus
Jul 5 2011, 04:38 AM
Dewey
Jul 5 2011, 03:42 AM
Quote:
 
A brilliant idea of his was to give ALL citizens voting rights -- entrusting the votes of male children to the father and female children to the mother until majority -- thus ensuring the political power of the family.


Um, yeah, why am I thinking this would be something a whole lot less than brilliant? I hope I'm just not awake enough for me to pick up on it, and you're being sarcastic here.

... and entrusting the votes of orphans to the board of trustees/directors of their orphanages.

(Just responding to the bits quoted by Dewey. I don't know who Hapsburg is and I have bone to pick with him; may he rest in peace.)
No, sorry, not at all. We've all but destroyed this country by having individuals voting to grant themselves entitlements to other people's wealth, and other examples of democracy devolving into mob rule. It would only be worse if, in essence, we gave more weight to the votes of those who have even more incentive to transfer even more of other people's resources to themselves. I don't believe that someone's choice to have a larger family - or in the worst case, who is not intelligent or responsible enough to avoid having one - is any criterion for making their vote worth more than mine, or their right to distribute other people's resources in ways they consider appropriate any more just.

Why should not families, who have a larger stake in the outcome of society since it is transgenerational, not have a larger voice in the political process?

Why should not all citizens have a proportional say in the direction of the country?

And you've created a strawman fallacy -- "their vote worth more than mine" -- it is not, the vote of their children is (would be) worth the same as yours -- you are arguing that some citizens should continue to be disenfranchised due to age.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Klaus
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HOLY CARP!!!
[nitpicking]
Otto von Habsburg
[/nitpicking]
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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John D'Oh
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ivorythumper
Jul 5 2011, 11:07 AM
Why should not families, who have a larger stake in the outcome of society since it is transgenerational, not have a larger voice in the political process?

Why should not all citizens have a proportional say in the direction of the country?

And you've created a strawman fallacy -- "their vote worth more than mine" -- it is not, the vote of their children is (would be) worth the same as yours -- you are arguing that some citizens should continue to be disenfranchised due to age.
In my case, my daughter's vote would be worth more than mine, since she's a citizen and I'm not.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
And you've created a strawman fallacy


No, I have not at all.

Quote:
 
-- "their vote worth more than mine" -- it is not, the vote of their children is (would be) worth the same as yours


Precisely. They do not have a vote now, and for reasons that I believe are quite legitimate. In order to give them a right that they do not currently have, and then to bestow that right by proxy to an adult parent, is absolutely to make their (the parents') right worth more than mine.

Quote:
 
-- you are arguing that some citizens should continue to be disenfranchised due to age.


Yes, that is exactly what I'm arguing. If one is not of appropriate age to exercise the right to vote responsibly, then they should not have it; neither should anyone else be given the right to exercise the right to vote on their behalf. When they reach the accepted age of majority, they are welcome to cast their own vote however they see fit.

Not only am I arguing that some citizens should continue to be disenfranchised due to age, I am also arguing that it's a pretty piss-poor argument that parents who by either choice or ignorance have procreated more than other families, or individuals, should have a larger say than others in the political process. As I said earlier, it just sets up an even more speedy decline of the country in voting itself into a completely provideristic state.

One adult citizen, one vote. Kids will just have to wait in order to enjoy the full rights and responsibilities of citizenship, and their parents should be given not one bit more consideration at the ballot box than two single, childless citizens who are standing in line alongside them. That's my opinion. You're free to disagree.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
It's still a strawman fallacy, Dewey. That's a fact. You are free to disagree.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I guess that allowing people with tons of kids to vote early, vote often might go some way to counterbalance the unfair level of influence that the filthy rich have on our politicians.

On the other hand, if having children is seen to give someone more political influence, maybe procreation could be taxed accordingly.

Oh, there's endless scope for politicians to play with this idea for their own benefit.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Copper
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Shortstop
John D'Oh
Jul 5 2011, 01:39 PM

maybe procreation could be taxed accordingly.

It is.

more children = more deductions
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
You could have the Irish and Mexican block vote!

Did it occur to you chaps that this idea would lead to more left-wingers getting elected?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
It has to me.

In my opinion, it wouldn't help families, but only hasten the destruction of them by permitting even more social welfare directed at the populations with the largest families - the poor and least educated - causing even further erosion of teaching responsibility and self-sufficiency. I don't wish any particular ill on Otto; I don't know anything about him - but I wish he'd take that lunatic idea to the grave along with him.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Dewey
Jul 5 2011, 07:48 PM
It has to me.

In my opinion, it wouldn't help families, but only hasten the destruction of them by permitting even more social welfare directed at the populations with the largest families - the poor and least educated - causing even further erosion of teaching responsibility and self-sufficiency. I don't wish any particular ill on Otto; I don't know anything about him - but I wish he'd take that lunatic idea to the grave along with him.
that only applies to black families, not white families.

Quote:
 
For black families where the head was college educated, 14.4 percent had five or more members. For black families where the head was a dropout who did not finish high school, 16.4 percent of all families had five or more members.

For white families where the head received a bachelor's degree, 11.9 percent had five or more members. For white families where the head was a school dropout, 9 percent had five or more members.

Therefore, white families with lower levels of education tend to have smaller families than their white counterparts with higher levels of education. For blacks, the opposite is true. Black families with higher levels of education tend to have smaller families than blacks with low levels of education


Also, in general except for the 2008 election, whites vote at a greater percentage than blacks.

So given that whites outnumber blacks in the US by about 6 to 1 -- it would be a net benefit to institute such a policy based on your rationale. (esp since a greater delta of educated whites --2.9% --have larger families over uneducated blacks - 2%).

But I wouldn't make a public policy argument based on race, Dewey. ;)
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Steve Miller
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Dewey
Jul 5 2011, 06:01 AM
We've all but destroyed this country by having individuals voting to grant themselves entitlements to other people's wealth, and other examples of democracy devolving into mob rule.
Got a cite for that?
Wag more
Bark less
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Dewey
Jul 5 2011, 11:32 AM
One adult citizen, one vote.
Of course -- they used to argue "one white male Protestant adult literate landholding citizen, one vote"... then they had to include Catholics and Jews ... and non land holding citizens ... and non whites ... then even women...

The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Steve Miller
Jul 5 2011, 10:50 PM
Dewey
Jul 5 2011, 06:01 AM
We've all but destroyed this country by having individuals voting to grant themselves entitlements to other people's wealth, and other examples of democracy devolving into mob rule.
Got a cite for that?
Like all those old people who vote for expanded social security at the expense of future generations who have to bear the burden of the debt? :lol2:

The problem of "gerontocracy" is actually one of the arguments in favor of "Demeny voting".

The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
It's pretty obvious that this is a slippery slope to disaster. Once you give children the vote, sooner or later the un-born will start demanding rights, and after that, dogs and cats, who many people consider to be family members. Eventually, people will be awarded a number of votes based on their sperm-count.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
How about this?

A parent (or guardian, or trustee of orphanage; yes that includes foreigners such as in D'Oh's case) who "get" the votes of the minors in their care also "get" the responsibilities of the minors in their care -- e.g., a prolific parent has 8 children, so he gets 9 votes, but also has 9x the chances of getting called upon to perform jury duty, gets to cast 9 votes when in jury duty, and has 9x the changes of getting drafted into the military when a draft is instituted, and has to perform 9x the duties of a childless soldier, and gets to make nine ultimate sacrifices for his country.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Jul 5 2011, 11:22 PM
Dewey
Jul 5 2011, 11:32 AM
One adult citizen, one vote.
Of course -- they used to argue "one white male Protestant adult literate landholding citizen, one vote"... then they had to include Catholics and Jews ... and non land holding citizens ... and non whites ... then even women...

Right on!

They should include sperms and eggs too; Each sperm and each egg gets half a vote, entrusted to the sperms and eggs' respective carriers.

EDIT: I saw that D'Oh has already latched on to that possibility in Post #21. Great minds!
Edited by Axtremus, Jul 6 2011, 03:38 AM.
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apple
one of the angels
I found the book "The fall of the Dynasties" (Romanovs, Hohnzollerans, Habsburgs, and the Osmalis) one of the most interesting ever. wish I could find it in the basement.

Seriously interesting account of the dawn of the new age so to speak and all the turmoil of pre world I and II.
it behooves me to behold
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
The biggest problem with allowing parents to vote on behalf of their children is that there's no control over the fact that many people will take bugger-all notice of their children's views and just vote twice for the same bloke. Having someone make decisions on my behalf does not empower me, it empowers them.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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