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What Memorial Day means to the Feds
Topic Started: May 29 2011, 10:55 AM (1,573 Views)
John D'Oh
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MAMIL
JBryan
May 31 2011, 06:52 AM
I know from my own experience that if you challenge a cop's authority like that you will likely get a ride to jail. It has been that way everywhere in this country since long before YouTube allowed people to make their jackassery go viral.

May not be right but it is so.
It may not be right, but it's necessary. If people can challenge cops like this, they'll lose their authority, and they need to have authority to do their job.

I don't think the police handled this well at all, incidentally - a bit of well-placed humour might have gone a long way to diffuse the situation. The type of behaviour exhibited at the beginning indicated someone who felt very insecure with his own authority, not a particularly useful trait.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I see what you mean John, but I think what really happened is you had a group of people determined to challenge and provoke the police. They weren't there dancing for the joy of being an American and honoring TJ. The police should not be asked to ignore that.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Mikhailoh
May 31 2011, 07:01 AM
I see what you mean John, but I think what really happened is you had a group of people determined to challenge and provoke the police. They weren't there dancing for the joy of being an American and honoring TJ. The police should not be asked to ignore that.
I'm not saying they should ignore it, however they didn't handle it very effectively. I suspect someone with a bit more in the way of leadership skills could have resolved the situation without people ending up in armlocks, and with everyone looking like a knobhead on YouTube. If they'd tried a bit of friendly persuasion earlier, and it didn't work, then they can toughen up, but going into the discussion looking like a bit of an officious prick is almost bound to lead to what happened.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
JBryan
May 31 2011, 06:52 AM
I know from my own experience that if you challenge a cop's authority like that you will likely get a ride to jail. It has been that way everywhere in this country since long before YouTube allowed people to make their jackassery go viral.

May not be right but it is so.
Agreed. And YouTube now gives citizens power against asshattery by cops.
"If I find myself on YouTube..." :lol2:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I would be hard to get along with too if someone made me wear that stupid looking uniform.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
JBryan
May 31 2011, 08:17 AM
I would be hard to get along with too if someone made me wear that stupid looking uniform.
Grown men should never wear shorts for business.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
The cop in that video needs to be fired and thrown in jail for breach of public trust.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Or lack of trust in the public breaches.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
If you look at the YouTube vids linked from that last one, it's pretty obvious that skateboarding kids get a much rougher deal from cops than those knobhead hippies at the Jefferson Memorial.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Mark
May 31 2011, 08:19 AM
The cop in that video needs to be fired and thrown in jail for breach of public trust.
He did get fired.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
May 31 2011, 08:19 AM
The cop in that video needs to be fired and thrown in jail for breach of public trust.
Think so? I don't. The memorial is a national park. Those protesters broke the rules and defied authority. The officer did his job. He should be thanked, commended and given bonus time off with pay to spend with his family and take them to national parks for recreation.



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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
They didn't break any rules.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
The Soviet Union used to have laws against 'hooliganism'. Maybe Russia still does. I always thought it was a good idea.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
No it's not.

We are not Russia or any other country.

We were born in defiance to authority.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
 
They didn't break any rules


Sorry Mark but apparently they did and knew full well that they doing so:

"National memorials are places of public commemoration, not freewheeling forums for open expression, and thus the government may reserve them for purposes that preclude expressive activity. Oberwetter points out that the Jefferson Memorial is located within the National Park system, and that public parks are quintessential examples of traditional public forums. Even so, we have recognized that our country’s many national parks are too vast and variegated to be painted with a single brush for purposes of forum analysis. “Presumably, many national parks include areas—even large areas, such as a vast wilderness preserve—which never have been dedicated to free expression and public assembly, would be clearly incompatible with such use, and would therefore be classified as nonpublic forums.”.... In creating and maintaining the Jefferson Memorial in particular, the government has dedicated a space with a solemn commemorative purpose that is incompatible with the full range of free expression that is permitted in public forums.

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2011/05/when-did-dancing-thomas-jefferson-memorial-become-crime8231


Visit a Canadian National Park with your precious guns and you'll get similar treatment.

Quote:
 
We were born in defiance to authority.


Bollocks.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Some of us were born in defiance to the rhythm method.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
That is not a law you have cited.

And if it was a law it would be unconstitutional.

If we desire such things we must amend the constitution to give exceptions to the 1st amendment.

Our SCOTUS has historically ruled incorrectly on such matters.

And it is wrong on this matter as well.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Do you really want to live in a nation where EVERY SINGLE THING has to be a matter of the letter of the law rather than a little common sense and courtesy? I don't think you do. That's not freedom and THAT will result in more of a police state much faster than what you saw on video there.

Free or no, you have obligations as a member of any society. Respect for your fellow citizens' rights to enjoyment of public works, unfettered by your own childish displays of pique, is IMO one of them.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Dancing is not disrespecting anything. These people were not doing anything wrong.

A police officer shoudl not be allowed to do what these officers did in relation to the activity going on.

Now, if someone was threatening someone else or was actually breaking a law then more power to the cops.

But that certainly was not the case here.

It's the LEOs that did not exhibit common sense here.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
May 30 2011, 09:23 PM
The simple point is that we are a nation of laws, not arbitrary judgments by police officers.

Once you condone arbitrary judgments by police, and condone threats to jail folks as a way of obtaining compliance when no laws are broken, and condone throwing people in jail for noncrimes, there is no longer any sure ground for human freedom within a well ordered society.
I think I'd revert back to what Aqua said earlier - laws are for the courts, the police are trying to enforce laws and they do have to make judgments and interpretations on the streets.

I haven't watched the video but I'm sure it doesn't show every bit of information that the officers were working from. For all we know there had already been other confrontations, and maybe there was a group of baseball bat carrying Teamsters about ready to go over and mix it up, and the officers were trying to keep the peace.

And once you resist, oh, it is ON!

Seems to me that if there is a large group of individuals assembled and the officer feels they are demonstrating in a public park, he may have authority to break that up if they do not have a permit and the officer feels that it is necessary in order to keep the peace and ensure domestic tranquility.
Edited by Kincaid, May 31 2011, 09:44 AM.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
May 31 2011, 09:18 AM
Dancing is not disrespecting anything. These people were not doing anything wrong.

They transgressed the Park's unwritten law. They are lucky that someone was not specifically called in to nail their heads to the floor.

DEP
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Cry me a river.

An unwritten law? :rolleyes2:

The police have no business using force in regard to "unwritten laws".
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Crying you a river would involve EPA regulation, this incident occurred in a venue under National Park's administration
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Ok, I watched the video.

The woman in the pink T-shirt is Medea Benjamin, an avowed communist and the founder of the anti-American Code Pink. She is well known by the police department as an activist troublemaker (that's being kind). Kokesh is also well known by the police as an activist trouble maker. Here is a picture of Kokesh in an earlier demonstration where he was carrying an upside down flag:

Posted Image

He seems to like upside down flags - here he is again, this time holding the flag upside down at a Ron Paul rally on the Capitol West Lawn:

Posted Image

The officer who slammed him to the ground had no choice to do so, because one of the other protesters had taken Kokesh's other arm and was trying to pull Kokesh away from the officer who was placing him in custody.

The officer was well aware of who he was dealing with before he ever walked up to them, the "dancers" were not there innocently, they *wanted* this to happen, and the officer was far more polite than I would have been. He did his job exactly by the book. He gave them a warning, and the chance to abandon their little game. They chose to do what they are known for doing - making a scene, trying to stir up sh!t. Surely no one thinks all those backup officers just happened to be standing around by accident...

Kokesh should be glad I wasn't that cop. I would have simply shot the son of a bitch between the eyes.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Mark
May 31 2011, 09:18 AM
Dancing is not disrespecting anything.
You wouldn't say that if you'd seen me dance. My dancing is illegal in 53 States.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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