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What Memorial Day means to the Feds
Topic Started: May 29 2011, 10:55 AM (1,574 Views)
Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
May 30 2011, 04:55 PM
Story in point...I once watched two local cops having a devil of a time loading a protesting idiot into the back of a cruiser. A state trooper walked up and asked could he help...the two local guys let him have the gentleman being arrested.

In a loud voice he told the man to watch his head as the door opening was rather low. He then proceeded to grab the man by the back of the head and broke his nose on the top of the door jamb.

The perp then proceeded to load quietly.

Now, some will look at that as police brutality. I look on it more as a disrespect for authority, and authority reasserted. There are times and ways to do things the proper way.

You want to protest or make an arse out of yourself? Get a permit.
+1 :uparrow:
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
If you're dumb enough to go through life being rude to policemen, you've got to expect a few broken noses.

If you're dumb enough to think that what happened there is fascism or police brutality, then you need to get out of the country more.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Just because it may be worse somewhere else doesn't make it right.

The LEOs were completely out of line and should be fired.

Yes, fired.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
I think some people would be more than just a little shocked to learn just how little or no patience our grandparents', great grandparents' and their parents' generations had for willful acts of civil disobedience and defiant public display.

These publicity seekers over the weekend would have been met with far more ruthless effiency at the hands of peace officers sixty years ago than this entitled lot did in 2011.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Doesn't make it right.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Jolly
May 30 2011, 04:55 PM
ivorythumper
May 30 2011, 01:29 PM
Jolly
May 29 2011, 02:46 PM
I think they were asked in a fairly nice tone to cease and desist. The group then chose to ignore the officer's request and his subsequent warnings.

Sorry, you want to be an attention whore and try to ruin other people's visit to the monument, you deserve to be arrested. You also deserve to sit in the pokey until the next working day, in order to enjoy your experience.
It was the cops who decided to ruin everyone's visit to the monument. I understand (but haven't verified) that in DC Parks/Memorials groups of less that 25 don't need to have a permit, so there is no "unauthorized demonstration" -- those cops evidently didn't have any handle on the law, obvious from the "you'll find out" comment.

If you are good with Federal Police capriciously telling American citizens how to act when at national monuments, I am not sure what you think "freedom" really means.
I'm from the South. You will show some respect and decorum at certain times, or we'll by God beat some respect into you.

Story in point...I once watched two local cops having a devil of a time loading a protesting idiot into the back of a cruiser. A state trooper walked up and asked could he help...the two local guys let him have the gentleman being arrested.

In a loud voice he told the man to watch his head as the door opening was rather low. He then proceeded to grab the man by the back of the head and broke his nose on the top of the door jamb.

The perp then proceeded to load quietly.

Now, some will look at that as police brutality. I look on it more as a disrespect for authority, and authority reasserted. There are times and ways to do things the proper way.

You want to protest or make an arse out of yourself? Get a permit.
People breaking laws are one thing. People being people are another. Decorum and respect are nice civic virtues. I know the totalitarians like to beat those virtues into people. I think America is about something very different.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
May 30 2011, 06:38 PM
People breaking laws are one thing. People being people are another. Decorum and respect are nice civic virtues. I know the totalitarians like to beat those virtues into people. I think America is about something very different.
+1 :uparrow:
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
I'm from the South. You will show some respect and decorum at certain times, or we'll by God beat some respect into you.



Yes. We will.



Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Quote:
 
People breaking laws are one thing. People being people are another. Decorum and respect are nice civic virtues. I know the totalitarians like to beat those virtues into people. I think America is about something very different.


No.

If you have no respect for others, then why should others have respect for you?

That's on a person-to-person basis. The situation is even worse when one shows no respect to legitimate authority.

In our opening video, it is very obvious that these folks have no respect for the officer and have given him the finger, as far as honoring his request. Be glad this IS America, and stupidity such as this is rewarded with nothing more than a simple arrest and a few hours in the pokey. There are places on this old globe where you could have easily caught some serious jail time or a bullet for your trouble.

No, the cop doesn't deserve a commendation, but he doesn't deserve any grief for this, either. He's just a man, doing his job.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
May 30 2011, 06:20 PM
Doesn't make it right.
No one said it did. But it makes for a better behaved populace.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
In my opinion, those "citizens" were assholes and deserve to be thrown in jail.
Also, it's totally ****ing ridiculous that they got arrested, for the reasons IT stated.
Thied, the law about video taping police needs to be thrown out. They need to be posted on YouTube precisely so that people can see it, think about and discuss it.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
These people were not breaking any law!

But LEOs throw them to the ground and choke them and that's just fine with some most of you.

Wow.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Mark
May 30 2011, 08:22 PM
These people were not breaking any law!

But LEOs throw them to the ground and choke them and that's just fine with some most of you.

Wow.
The beginning of the incident is very questionable, but:

1) If you don't know what an officer is asking of you or why, you ask for clarification.
2) You don't use a snotty ass tone.
3) When you receive your answer, you have a choice. You can either comply with the officers' request, like they had ample opportunity to do, or you can state your position and disagreement (which may very well be totally legitimate), continue to do what you are doing (which may in fact be all right) and prepare to get your ass thrown in jail. And you will get your ass thrown in jail. Legality is determined in the courtroom, not on the street. On the street it's the officer's call and as these people learned, that's just how it is.

So then, to recap: IF you are doing something that gets an officer's attention, AND he asks you to stop, AND you disagree, AND you're snotty about asking what law you broke, AND you're snotty about your disagreement, AND you continue with your actions with the sole intention of pissing the officer off, then yes, prepare to be choke-slammed.

I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
My point is that the first part of this encounter should have never taken place or the LEO should have backed off knowing full well that these people have a right to do what they were doing in the first place.

This is a clear violation of constitutional rights by the LEOs.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Mark
May 30 2011, 08:32 PM
My point is that the first part of this encounter should have never taken place or the LEO should have backed off knowing full well that these people have a right to do what they were doing in the first place.

This is a clear violation of constitutional rights by the LEOs.
You may very well be right, Mark.

What I'm saying is that expecting the officers to change their point of view after you explain your position is folly. That's just not how it ever works. Especially when you have a snotty ass tone, which these people did.

The cops thought they were "demonstrating." These people disagreed. The right way to deal with that issue is to get everyone's badge numbers, leave, and bring a case against the officers, not escalate things to definitely causing a scene at the memorial and resisting arrest. That's not how you clear up the disagreement.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
It's about abuse of power Aqua.

I'm against it. The cops were outside of the constitution here. Period.

If you all don't like that fact, amend the constitution.

Otherwise, these LEOs need to be re-trained.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Jolly
May 30 2011, 07:04 PM
Quote:
 
People breaking laws are one thing. People being people are another. Decorum and respect are nice civic virtues. I know the totalitarians like to beat those virtues into people. I think America is about something very different.


No.

If you have no respect for others, then why should others have respect for you?

That's on a person-to-person basis. The situation is even worse when one shows no respect to legitimate authority.

In our opening video, it is very obvious that these folks have no respect for the officer and have given him the finger, as far as honoring his request. Be glad this IS America, and stupidity such as this is rewarded with nothing more than a simple arrest and a few hours in the pokey. There are places on this old globe where you could have easily caught some serious jail time or a bullet for your trouble.

No, the cop doesn't deserve a commendation, but he doesn't deserve any grief for this, either. He's just a man, doing his job.
The government should respect basic human rights, like the right to act as people want in public places as long as they are not being obscene or violent, etc. The people did respectfully ask the officer what laws they were breaking, and the officer could give them none.

Had the officer been able to say "if you do X you are in violation of statue Y", that would be an exhibition of legitimate authority. To say "you'll find out" is capricious and gives every reason for the average citizen to think the officer is making up sh!t as he goes along.

And it is a strange argument when you try to justify people being thrown in jail for non crimes (such as stupidity -- even assuming that was what is going on) on the grounds that other places treat people even worse. Once you condone people being thrown in jail for noncrimes -- as you have just done -- it really is all over. Our fallen soldiers died for nothing other than the raw power of the centralized state. I would be surprised to find out that is your position.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Mark
May 30 2011, 08:45 PM
It's about abuse of power Aqua.

I'm against it. The cops were outside of the constitution here. Period.

If you all don't like that fact, amend the constitution.

Otherwise, these LEOs need to be re-trained.
Well, I think so, too. I've seen people do jackass stuff at the D.C. memorials quite a bit. In my opinion, best thing to do, legally and personally, is let them do their bullsh!t and wait until they move on, live and let live.

But everything that followed after the cops started talking to them is right out.

I rode my bike through D.C. a lot. I mean, a lot. Many, many hours. Had more than my share of conversations with police officers. And what do you know, sure, some of them are dicks but overall they don't like getting involved in this sort of crap, either.

Once, I rode with a whole squad(?) of bike cops (which this guy was) from Union Station, across Dupont Circle and all the way up that big ass hill to the Naval Observatory. While I was talking with them, their radios were going off and somebody was saying something about, "nobody gets arrested downtown today, does everyone copy that? No D.C. officer is to arrest anyone during [whatever event was going on, I forget what it was now]. "

I imagine that order was given because incidents just like this are the kind they try to avoid, because it creates a skewed public perception of the entire police force and makes their job just that much harder the next time.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Exactly why these officers who are plainly identifiable in the video need to be disciplined.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
ivorythumper
May 30 2011, 08:52 PM
The people did respectfully ask the officer what laws they were breaking, and the officer could give them none.

I think that's debatable. In my opinion they were (sorry) copping an attitude.

Quote:
 
Had the officer been able to say "if you do X you are in violation of statue Y", that would be an exhibition of legitimate authority. To say "you'll find out" is capricious and gives every reason for the average citizen to think the officer is making up sh!t as he goes along.


Yeah, the cop never should have said that. But later on he did sort of explain himself. My understanding is that he took their jackassery as a "demonstration," in which case, yeah, you'd need a permit to do so there. I think that's a crap interpretation of "demonstration," but you don't amend the disagreement by pissing off the officers, do you?
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Mark
May 30 2011, 09:00 PM
Exactly why these officers who are plainly identifiable in the video need to be disciplined.
Yeah but that's never going to happen now, thanks to the way in which these people chose to conduct themselves.

Say a guy gets stopped for "suspicious behavior" (walking across the street). Say the guy gets so pissed off about being unnecessarily harassed that he punches the officer in the face. Do you honestly think the cop's going to be disciplined for stopping the guy after something like that happens? No, it looks like the cop had a good sense to stop the guy in the first place. In my opinion it's kind of like that. These people had a bit of a case when asked to stop what they were doing. They lost what little leverage they had when they made it escalate.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Aqua Letifer
May 30 2011, 09:01 PM
ivorythumper
May 30 2011, 08:52 PM
The people did respectfully ask the officer what laws they were breaking, and the officer could give them none.

I think that's debatable. In my opinion they were (sorry) copping an attitude.

Quote:
 
Had the officer been able to say "if you do X you are in violation of statue Y", that would be an exhibition of legitimate authority. To say "you'll find out" is capricious and gives every reason for the average citizen to think the officer is making up sh!t as he goes along.


Yeah, the cop never should have said that. But later on he did sort of explain himself. My understanding is that he took their jackassery as a "demonstration," in which case, yeah, you'd need a permit to do so there. I think that's a crap interpretation of "demonstration," but you don't amend the disagreement by pissing off the officers, do you?
OK, I'll retract "respectful".

The simple point is that we are a nation of laws, not arbitrary judgments by police officers.

Once you condone arbitrary judgments by police, and condone threats to jail folks as a way of obtaining compliance when no laws are broken, and condone throwing people in jail for noncrimes, there is no longer any sure ground for human freedom within a well ordered society.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Okay yeah I agree.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
May 30 2011, 09:24 PM
Okay yeah I agree.
hey u trying to ruin this forum?

agreeing with someone?

its people like you what cause unrest.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I know from my own experience that if you challenge a cop's authority like that you will likely get a ride to jail. It has been that way everywhere in this country since long before YouTube allowed people to make their jackassery go viral.

May not be right but it is so.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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