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| If the rapture really happens tomorrow . . .; AKA . . . the Good Bye Thread | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 20 2011, 01:21 PM (12,126 Views) | |
| Larry | May 23 2011, 10:09 AM Post #151 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Let me introduce you to the *real* early church: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christians |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| JBryan | May 23 2011, 10:11 AM Post #152 |
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I am the grey one
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The correct answer being all of them. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Frank_W | May 23 2011, 10:12 AM Post #153 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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It's also likely that these are the people with whom Jesus spent the "lost years" from his teens throughout his twenties and early thirties, before embarking on his mission. |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| George K | May 23 2011, 10:49 AM Post #154 |
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Finally
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I just asked the Mrs. if Lutherans believe in virgin birth. She said, "What????" I said, you know, immaculate conception, that Jesus was conceived without carnal events. She said, "Oh, goodness. I don't know. Lutherans don't talk about sex." |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| KlavierBauer | May 23 2011, 10:53 AM Post #155 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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George: The Immaculate Conception isn't the virgin birth. The Immaculate Conception is the theological concept that God insulated Mary from original sin as *she* was being born, such that she was immaculate, or "spotless" (without stain) when she gave birth to Christ. This concept is held by both Catholics and Eastern Christians (Orthodox) with division amongst the details. And yes, Lutherans believe in the virgin birth - as do all sects of Christianity. This shows up in the Nicene crede which was in part decided upon at the First Ecumenical Council (council of Nicaea) as a result of the Arian Heresy, and several other issues (date of Easter, Meletian Schism, etc.). Edited by KlavierBauer, May 23 2011, 11:05 AM.
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| KlavierBauer | May 23 2011, 10:57 AM Post #156 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Larry: I don't think anyone's debating the existence of Jews who were Christians in the early church. It was sort of a necessity. While Peter spent a lot of time with these specific people, Paul spent a lot of time amongst gentiles. It doesn't change what is well documented and accepted as the history of the early church - bishops in major cities such as Alexandria, Byzantium, Jerusalem, Rome, Antioch - etc., Peter being in Rome, and so on. I know there is no forensic evidence for Peter being in Rome, or at least, that there are skeptics, but it is widely accepted that he was there... I understand that you, or others may not believe this, and having not been there myself, I can't claim to know specifically when/where Paul and/or Peter may have been, other than historical accounts. There are early traditions and accounts of this, corroborated by other writers of the time, that indicate that Peter was in Rome, while there are other pieces of historical writing which don't point in this direction - I guess each needs to decide which they believe, but it's not as though the majority of church historians believe this to be a fallacy. In fact, most Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, and Coptic "thinkers" accept this tradition as history, as they accept any number of other early church traditions. |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| George K | May 23 2011, 10:59 AM Post #157 |
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Finally
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OK, I'm walking way out of my knowledge base here, heretic that I am. If the immaculate conception isn't the virgin birth, why is she called the "Virgin Mary?" |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| Larry | May 23 2011, 10:59 AM Post #158 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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A theological concept by the way, that no matter what details you choose to side with about it, is not only not scriptural, it is contrary to scripture. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| brenda | May 23 2011, 11:07 AM Post #159 |
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..............
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That's the truth!
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“Weeds are flowers, too, once you get to know them.” ~A.A. Milne | |
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| Larry | May 23 2011, 11:09 AM Post #160 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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You're just not getting it. As they say, history is written by the victor. Jews weren't a "sort of a necessity" to the early church, they WERE the early church. The "well documented" evidence you want to argue is that which was invented by the "victor". That leaves you with quite a few sticky little points to work around, such as the claim that Peter was the first pope, that the church in Rome was the "true church", and then having to construct the whole "well, Peter *probably* was in Rome... sometime or other.." when in fact there is absolutely NO evidence that he was ever in Rome, and Paul's writings indicate that he wasn't. From there, all the "traditions of the early church" you talk about as being "well documented historical fact" came later. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| KlavierBauer | May 23 2011, 11:10 AM Post #161 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Larry: The very idea of Original Sin is inconsistent at some level with scripture - we've already come to the conclusion that your beliefs are limited by your personal interpretation of today's accepted canon/scripture, and that mine are not. We don't need to go there yet again. You accept only what is included in today's English translation of the Bible as authoritative, and I accept many other early sources of writing and tradition to inform my perception of what is authoritative. One can also argue that the theology of the trinity isn't scriptural, and as I just mentioned above about the Council of Nicaea, indeed the early Church also had people who based on scripture questioned the very divinity of Christ (Arias). So clearly varying people will vary on what scripture does, or does not say. George: The virginal birth is a separate thing. It is also believed, so the idea of the virgin birth is accurate - you're right, it's just not what the Immaculate Conception refers to. The Feast of the Immaculate Conception deals with the birth of Mary, and her isolation (without getting into the mechanics of it) from original sin, while the Feast of the Assumption is the feast of the virgin birth. Just two different, and often misunderstood/confused ideas. |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| Luke's Dad | May 23 2011, 11:13 AM Post #162 |
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Emperor Pengin
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In all fairness and respect, I think too many Christians and Christian denominations are getting way too tied up into too many incidental and unimportant aspects of the faith and are losing sight of the point. It's rather reminiscent of the pharisees, frankly. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| KlavierBauer | May 23 2011, 11:17 AM Post #163 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Larry - please cite the writings you're using prior to the 3rd century? I'm not talking about things written later, I'm talking about tradition and writing/teaching from the first three centuries of the church... Jews were a necessity of the early church - Christ and most of the people around him were Jewish! Perhaps we're disagreeing about what "necessity" means? Stating the fact that many early Christians were Jewish doesn't speak one way or the other to the history of the early church. Speaking of which - you keep telling me I don't have any evidence, but you keep listing things I don't believe. Again - I'm Orthodox, so I'm not sure why you're talking to me about Rosaries, Popes, and the "true church." Obviously I don't believe that Rome was the "True Church" - Rome was the "First Among Equals" in the early church. Again - I'm Orthodox, perhaps you're confusing IT and I. I am backup up IT's version of early church history though, which includes all of the very well documented events up to, and including the Council of Nicaea, and subsequent Synods, where the church doctrine and dogma were discussed and established - are you disagreeing with all of this, or something else? I'm not sure I understand what point it is that you're trying to make regarding Church history - is it just that you don't buy into the idea that Peter was in Rome? I'm OK with that - only most people believe that - not everyone, and you're certainly free to have your own ideas about it, though I'd suggest reading some of the early Fathers' writings on the subject if you're wanting to read something that wasn't written by the "victor" after the fact. |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| Frank_W | May 23 2011, 11:17 AM Post #164 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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Deja vu.. I could have sworn I said this in the "debating" thread.
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| Dewey | May 23 2011, 11:20 AM Post #165 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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George - the virgin birth and the immaculate conception are two different theological beliefs. The first is about Jesus' birth - that he was born to the virgin Mary. It is Christian belief that Jesus was fully human, but that unlike any of us, he was completely without sin. This causes theological dissonance if one believes that any human carries with them original sin, since, although God was Jesus' "father," Mary was still very much Jesus' mother and she was very much human - and therefore, one would assume, also a "carrier" of original sin. The doctrine of the "immaculate conception" is that Mary was in some way also born sinless, which then would enable Jesus to be born sinless. The Protestant issue with the doctrine of immaculate conception is that it doesn't really solve the problem of transmitting original sin, it just pushes it back one generation: if Mary was born without original sin, then her parents must have been so born, and so on. Or, if God somehow worked a miracle enabling Mary to be born without original sin while still being born of normal sinful parents, then why could God have not just done that with Jesus and not had to go back to Mary? The theology of the virgin birth deals with Jesus' birth. The theology of the immaculate conception deals with Mary's. Belief in the virgin birth of Jesus is a key theological point within all of Christianity. There are some, spread very thinly across all Christian traditions, who do not hold to the belief. But they are an extremely small minority. Yes, orthodox Christianity would say that they are not even "Christian" because of their disagreement on that point. On the other hand, I've known a few folks who deny the virgin birth yet who still maintain that Jesus of Nazareth was still fully human and fully God, and who were deeply committed to being his follower. Even further, it's entirely probable that in the early church, before the gospels were put down on papyrus, there were many early believers who had never even heard of the particulars of Jesus' birth, yet who recognized Jesus was Lord. So I'm not going to say that someone isn't "really" a Christian simply if they don't accept the virgin birth. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| KlavierBauer | May 23 2011, 11:21 AM Post #166 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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LsD: I agree, though you and I probably disagree about which points Christians are getting hung up on, and in which they're losing their meaning and practice. I see them losing meaning and practice of their faith in denying the sacraments, and accepting power-point presentations and 3-point, easy-to-digest sermons that make them feel good while they sit and drink Starbucks (thinking of Joel Osteen type congregations here). I think the ingredients of the recipe are important if one really means to cook, and so I don't see an analog with the Pharisees here, though I agree that if it is all without any intent to better practice one's repentance, and ultimately salvation, then it is indeed pointless and a waste of time. |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| Larry | May 23 2011, 11:23 AM Post #167 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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In Catholic theology, Mary wasn't simply a young woman who had never had sex with a man when she became pregnant with Jesus, she was perfect, and she remained a virgin her entire life (how they deal with Jesus' brother James I'll never know...). According to their theology, one can pray to Mary and she will act as an intermediary for you, taking your prayer to God on your behalf. It's called "immaculate conception" not because she was untouched, but because she was perfect - something that is totally against scripture. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| KlavierBauer | May 23 2011, 11:26 AM Post #168 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Dewey: To be clear, I wouldn't speak to any such person's soul, their level of repentance, or their chance at salvation and Grace. Me saying someone isn't a Christian is more of a logical statement based on what are considered to be "non-negotiable" tenants of Christianity. |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| Larry | May 23 2011, 11:28 AM Post #169 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Odd. As I see it, it's the other way around.
Evidence that your conclusion regarding what I see and accept is your own "limited interpretation". |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| KlavierBauer | May 23 2011, 11:28 AM Post #170 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Larry, this is just another difference in our histories. The early church didn't teach, and much of the modern church hasn't taught, that Mary and Joseph were ever husband and wife in the way that we think of it today. It's historically accepted that Joseph took guardianship of Mary, and took her to be his wife as she was pregnant, and faced harsh problems. She was probably 13-ish when she was married to Joseph, and he was much older (50s or 60s I believe?). Christian teaching historically has never been that they were husband and wife - Joseph's other children came from his previous marriage as the historical accounts indicate (i.e. James). Jesus had no biological siblings, and Mary and Joseph never had sex - at least as far as historical Christian teaching goes. These are consistent with scripture, or at very least, are not inconsistent with scripture, but another area where your chosen history and mine may find conflict. |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| KlavierBauer | May 23 2011, 11:31 AM Post #171 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Please correct me then, as in these discussions your main criticism of my points is usually that they're not scriptural, indicating that other sources of early church history and knowledge are not valuable or authoritative. I've understood this to mean that you follow only what is said in the Bible, and assuming that you don't read in Greek, or any apocryphal books, I've also taken this to mean that you accept what are today's canonical scriptures, and not others (as we do). If I'm mistaken I apologize, and please correct me. |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| Mark | May 23 2011, 11:32 AM Post #172 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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+1 |
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___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
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| Dewey | May 23 2011, 11:33 AM Post #173 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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KB: I just use the term "unorthodox (small "o") Christian" to describe them. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Klaus | May 23 2011, 11:36 AM Post #174 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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It seems to me that you guys are just arguing over semantics. Whether Paul, or Jesus, or anyone else is a Jew, or Christian, or Catholic Christian, all depends on how you define these terms. A prime number is a number that can only be divided by one or itself. How do I have to end the sentences "A Jew is..." or "A Roman Catholic is..." to make them equally precise? If you can do that, there is no need for arguments anymore. |
| Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman | |
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| KlavierBauer | May 23 2011, 11:38 AM Post #175 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I don't think the argument is about who is Jewish, and who is Christian Klaus, but I may be mistaken. That's why I've asked Larry for more clarification about what it is he is disagreeing with. I thought we were just debating the history of the church, which has nothing to do with whether one is or isn't a Jew/Christian/Catholic. |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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11:28 AM Jul 11