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If the rapture really happens tomorrow . . .; AKA . . . the Good Bye Thread
Topic Started: May 20 2011, 01:21 PM (12,129 Views)
Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
I find many of the larger theological arguments to be mostly irrelevant.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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It's my opinion - and the opinion of the vast majority of Christianity, over the entire history of the faith - that the interpretation of a coming "rapture" is based on erroneous interpretation of scripture, and in some instances flatly ignoring what scripture says.



I do not accept that the "vast majority of Christianity, over the entire history of the faith " agrees with your opinion. In fact, I believe it is exactly the opposite. I believe what is commonly referred to as "dispensationalism" was the view of the early church, and what happened in the 19th century was a return to that view after centuries of pollution from the Catholic Church. This article sums up my views quite nicely:

http://www.gotquestions.org/dispensationalism.html


Dispensationalism is a system of theology that has two primary distinctives. 1) A consistently literal interpretation of Scripture, especially Bible prophecy. 2) A distinction between Israel and the church in God's program.

Dispensationalists claim that their principle of hermeneutics is that of literal interpretation, which means giving each word the meaning it would commonly have in everyday usage. Symbols, figures of speech and types are all interpreted plainly in this method, and this is in no way contrary to literal interpretation. Even symbols and figurative sayings have literal meanings behind them.

There are at least three reasons why this is the best way to view Scripture. First, philosophically, the purpose of language itself seems to require that we interpret it literally. Language was given by God for the purpose of being able to communicate with man. The second reason is biblical. Every prophecy about Jesus Christ in the Old Testament was fulfilled literally. Jesus' birth, Jesus' ministry, Jesus' death, and Jesus' resurrection all occurred exactly and literally as the Old Testament predicted. There is no non-literal fulfillment of these prophecies in the New Testament. This argues strongly for the literal method. If literal interpretation is not used in studying the Scriptures, there is no objective standard by which to understand the Bible. Each and every person would be able to interpret the Bible as he saw fit. Biblical interpretation would devolve into “what this passage says to me...” instead of “the Bible says...” Sadly, this is already the case in much of what is called biblical interpretation today.

Dispensational theology teaches that there are two distinct peoples of God: Israel and the church. Dispensationalists believe that salvation has always been by faith—in God in the Old Testament and specifically in God the Son in the New Testament. Dispensationalists hold that the church has not replaced Israel in God’s program and the Old Testament promises to Israel have not been transferred to the church. They believe that the promises God made to Israel (for land, many descendants, and blessings) in the Old Testament will be ultimately fulfilled in the 1000-year period spoken of in Revelation chapter 20. Dispensationalists believe that just as God is in this age focusing His attention on the church, He will again in the future focus His attention on Israel (Romans 9-11).

Using this system as a basis, dispensationalists understand the Bible to be organized into seven dispensations: Innocence (Genesis 1:1–3:7), conscience (Genesis 3:8–8:22), human government (Genesis 9:1–11:32), promise (Genesis 12:1–Exodus 19:25), law (Exodus 20:1–Acts 2:4), grace (Acts 2:4–Revelation 20:3), and the millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6). Again, these dispensations are not paths to salvation, but manners in which God relates to man. Dispensationalism, as a system, results in a premillennial interpretation of Christ’s second coming and usually a pretribulational interpretation of the rapture. To summarize, dispensationalism is a theological system that emphasizes the literal interpretation of Bible prophecy, recognizes a clear distinction between Israel and the church, and organizes the Bible into the different dispensations it presents.

---------

One must remember that for centuries the Catholic Church was one of the most anti-semitic groups one could find. The view that Catholicism replaced the Jews and the Old Testament would therefore be expected, but it wouldn't be Biblical. I also agree with the article's statement:

"If literal interpretation is not used in studying the Scriptures, there is no objective standard by which to understand the Bible. Each and every person would be able to interpret the Bible as he saw fit. Biblical interpretation would devolve into “what this passage says to me...” instead of “the Bible says...” Sadly, this is already the case in much of what is called biblical interpretation today."

The Bible isn't written for us to say "this is what it means to me". It is written to say "this is what it means".

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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dolmansaxlil
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HOLY CARP!!!
George K
May 21 2011, 07:00 AM
dolmansaxlil
May 21 2011, 06:54 AM
George, obviously you don't know me very well, because there is no way I would ever be taken in a group of the godly. This hand basket is exceptionally roomy if anyone would like to join me...
That's not me in that post: http://s10.zetaboards.com/The_New_Coffee_Room/single/?p=8789958&t=7339667

That's Kenny.

See? http://s10.zetaboards.com/The_New_Coffee_Room/single/?p=8790278&t=7339694
Damn you, kenny!
;)
(Sorry, George!)
"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson

My Flickr Photostream


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George K
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Finally
Dol: :smooch:

Kenny: :slap:
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
Also, fundamentalists by their very nature agree with the Catholics about the whole "No man may know the timing" thing. The very fact that these misguided people believe that they know the timing proves the fact that they are not fundamentalist. Oh, they may try to apply the term to themselves, but it doesn't make it so. The other members of my fundamentalist Baptist church are kind of chuckling at the whole thing. I'm not sure that's entirely appropriate, myself, as I feel bad that these poor people are being led astray by bad theology and doctrine.



Don't confuse dispensationalists with kooks who think they can predict the second coming. One does not follow the other, and being a "fundamentalist" does not mean one is a kook who thinks it can be predicted.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Watch out for the Rapture Raptor!

Posted Image

That was on the white board this morning. :lol:
___.___
(_]===*
o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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George K
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Finally
Posted Image

Remember- they can open doors, outsmart big game hunters, and even killed a guy who hated snakes on his plane.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
May 21 2011, 07:15 AM
Don't confuse dispensationalists with kooks ....
Why not? I've never met one that wasn't a kook.
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PattyP
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kenny
May 20 2011, 03:28 PM
Hey, it's not that important. :shrug:
It is to me.

A tired dog is a good dog.

"Dogs' lives are too short...their only fault, really."
A.S. Turnbull
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PattyP
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Larry
May 20 2011, 09:34 PM
kenny
May 20 2011, 09:20 PM
Larry, is thread gonna be yet another 3-Way Pissing Contest for Christ?

I hope he DOES take all you knobheads tomorrow. :wave:
Kenny, I readily admit to being a heathen. I have no moral footing for "preaching" at anyone. I am fully aware that God probably will have to dip me in some sort of disinfectant at some point..

But:

Have you ever read the descriptions the prophets who lived a thousand years before Christ gave of the coming Messiah? Jesus Christ is described in such minute detail in the old testament that there is only one human to ever live who could even come close to being the one they were describing. His birth, his life, his death, and his resurrection from death all described like an eyewitness account - more than a thousand years before he was born. I would have to be a fool to NOT believe it, no offense.


Larry, my friend, He already has. :bigkiss:

A tired dog is a good dog.

"Dogs' lives are too short...their only fault, really."
A.S. Turnbull
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Luke's Dad
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Unbelievably good point, Patty.

The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
apple
May 21 2011, 04:26 AM
Kenny - I asked you to take me off your groupism list. You have no idea what my beliefs are. I don't know why this pisses me off but it does.

I still love you and thank you for the darling little piano tho.
Sorry apple.
Certainly didn't mean to piss you off.
It was a compliment.
I love you.

My list was people who had a certain groovyness - a 100%-Kenny-centric groovyness.

Dewey, Larry and IT are constantly publishing their version of their groovyness, but they don't take responsibility for their version as being nothing more than their version.
They externalize it and say they are just aligned with universal external truth - then fight over what that is.

While all three are quite bright they somehow don't get that the perspective of there being one universal truth in matters of faith is flawed.
Truth for stuff like 2+2 equals.

I think on reason they do it to evade personal responsibility.
"Voting anti-equality isn't MY choice; it's what GOD wants.
Yeah, right!

By publishing my list I'm just being honest and accepting responsibility for my petty arrogance.
I see this as a good thing.
I'm just a brick in the wall, and I know it.

Religions are all about making you feel ashamed of what comes natural to you.
That's how they get you.
Convince you that what's natural is a problem, then sell you the solution.
It worked great for selling deodorant too.

Like everyone else here I say what I think is groovy - the right way to be, to think, to live.
Unlike our 3 gladiators I just don't fight over it since I understand it is just my opinion, just one of some 6.9 billon.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
Wait a minute... Brenda hasn't posted all morning!

:o
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
And where's Aqua?
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Kenny, that was an amazing segue from faith to gay rights. :lol2:

We all have our own church, I guess.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
PattyP
May 21 2011, 07:47 AM
Larry, my friend, He already has. :bigkiss:
Well done!!!
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Indeed.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
kenny
May 21 2011, 07:51 AM
Religions are all about making you feel ashamed of what comes natural to you.
That's how they get you.
Convince you that what's natural is a problem, then sell you the solution.
It worked great for selling deodorant too.

Indisputable!

Excellent observation and comparison.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
I just hope when all these believers wake up tomorrow we don't have a repeat of Rev. Jim Jones' People's Temple.
It would be sad for their children.

But then as Darwin implied, it's all about only the best DNA going forward.

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
Dewey, Larry and IT are constantly publishing their version of their groovyness, but they don't take responsibility for their version as being nothing more than their version.
They externalize it and say they are just aligned with universal external truth - then fight over what that is.



Well, we have the Catholic version, we have the Presbyterian version, and then we have what's written in scripture. To be honest, were it not for the fact that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, I would dismiss all of it as nothing more than ancient comic books. But he did - and he was a Jewish Rabbi, not a Catholic, and not a Presbyterian. For that reason I reject any theological interpretations that come from a perspective of "this is what scripture says to *me*", or that takes the viewpoint that the Church replaced Israel and the Jews.

Signed: Proud Dispensationalist


Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Kenny, equating all those who believe in God with the lunacy of people like Jim Jones is like saying all homosexuals wear pink tutus and suck weenies through holes in bathroom stall walls.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
They don't?
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
PattyP
May 21 2011, 07:47 AM
Larry, my friend, He already has. :bigkiss:
Thank you, sweetie. I was hoping someone would catch that.... :D
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
I do not accept that the "vast majority of Christianity, over the entire history of the faith " agrees with your opinion. In fact, I believe it is exactly the opposite. I believe [a buncha stuff]


You're welcome to believe whatever you want, as is consistent with your conscience, just like everyone else. As I said earlier,

Quote:
 
Many very devout and sincere Christians believe firmly in the coming of a rapture, whether it is going to happen today or at some other point. I respect their right to believe it, even while I disagree with it.


As to the link about dispensationalism, I understand if you want to clarify your beliefs by linking to that. But no need to explain dispensationalist theology for my benefit. I'm very familiar with it. In fact, I believed it too, for roughly the first half of my life within the Christian faith, and any number of people I hold in high esteem accept it. I don't, and I haven't for a long, long time. As I said, I'm not going to argue about it; it's pretty pointless. You believe what your conscience tells you, and everyone else will do the same.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Larry
May 21 2011, 06:38 AM
I'll put my confidence in the writers of scripture instead of the Catholic Church.



The two are the same group. :lol2:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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