Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
If the rapture really happens tomorrow . . .; AKA . . . the Good Bye Thread
Topic Started: May 20 2011, 01:21 PM (12,102 Views)
Dewey
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 


Thanks for linking to an argument that addresses interpreting the scriptures to support part of your argument. In the quote, the author talks about "stretching unduly" word studies to bend the scripture to a support a preconceived position. I actually think he's doing the same when he interprets teknon in the way he does. What isn't clear in the link is that while the AGD Lexicon he quotes does include "descendents" as a possible translation for the word, he fails to mention that the most common usage of the word in that very Lexicon he quotes (now known as BDAG, the newer, 2000 edition is sitting here in my lap) is simply "children." There is no real clear rationale for him to jump to the more rare meaning of the word, and the rationale he offers seems pretty weak and stretched to me. But if you believe it, so be it. Also, to reject the idea that "households" or "families" do not include children is to accept the far less common meaning of the term. More "stretching unduly" in my opinion. But again, if that's your understanding of scripture, you're welcome to it. At least now you're making your case via scripture, and some people's interpretation of it.

But as I asked before, what do you make of the fact that the majority of Christian bible scholars and theologians do not agree with that position?

Regarding some of the theologians you've quoted in another post, the first three mentioned - Luther, Erasmus, and Olshausen - all three are snip-quoted. All three of them are quoted for the obvious, that there is no scripture that states categorically that children were baptized, just as there is no scripture that states categorically that they weren't. But the author fails to point out that all three of them, just as do the overwhelming majority of theologians, believe that the scriptures still attest to the correctness of infant baptism - that, just as it's true that there is no specific scripture that states that Jesus is fully human and fully divine; or that the nature of God is best understood as the Trinity, that that's actually what the totality of scriptures point to. The author of the link referenced is being highly disingenuous here, since all three of those quoted, supposedly to argue against infant baptism, actually argued against the idea of believers-only baptism.




"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dewey
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
May 26 2011, 09:01 PM
Dewey
May 26 2011, 08:39 PM
Larry, are you aware that the majority of Christians - Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant - accept the appropriateness of infant baptism, and that it is not merely a symbolic act of a person's decision to follow Christ? Are you aware that the original Protestant Reformers - that bunch of "Sola Scriptura" and "ad fontes" Christians who justified every single position they put forth on scripture - all held to the correctness of infant baptism, and that it wasn't until the "Radical Reformation" that believers-only baptism was espoused by some faith traditions? Are you also aware that some of these traditions believe that this baptism actually conveys salvation to the child, while other traditions believe that baptism is entrance into God's covenant people, just as circumcision did for Jews, but that it does not convey salvation?
I'm aware that *you* think that is the case, and I'm also aware of the fact that you are, in fact, incorrect.

Larry, this is not my opinion, it isn't my interpretation, it's a simple mathematical fact. The predominant view within the Christian faith, across Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant traditions of the faith, is that infant baptism is correct and supported by scripture. Irenaeus and Origen noted as far back as the late second and early third century that the baptism of children and infants was practiced even in the earliest church community, and that the practice had come from the apostles.

The belief in believers-only baptism has never been the predominant view within the faith. Granted, even that doesn't say whether it's right or wrong, but you need to at very least accept mathematical fact.

"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dewey
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
Baptism is the act of one man shoving another man under water. Unless one is a Catholic, in which case you don't even get that right, and just fling a little water in their face.


Well, I've been asking for you to detail your theology of baptism. I guess that's it. ^_^
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
John D'Oh
Member Avatar
MAMIL
If infant baptism isn't valid, do I have to get it done again?

I was baptised as a baby in a church built in 1533, most likely on the site of an earlier building, using a small font that dated back to about the same time. More importantly, most of the people in the area who actually follow the Christian faith were probably baptised in the same place and in the same way, and have been for at least the last 500 odd years.

Do all these people need re-dunking in some huge bathtub, right where everyone can see their underwear and everything, or are they still going to heaven?

To be perfectly honest, I don't think most of them would hold with it. I can hear them now 'Down with this sort of thing!', they'd shout. By 'this sort of thing' I'm afraid they'd probably mean 'American churches', and who can blame them?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Klaus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Hitler! Hitler! (I hope Godwin was not raptured)
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
John D'Oh
Member Avatar
MAMIL
Klaus
May 27 2011, 05:05 AM
Hitler! Hitler! (I hope Godwin was not raptured)
You keep trying to kill the thread, but so far all you've managed to inflict is a flesh wound...

Posted Image
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dewey
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
DEP!!!
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Aqua Letifer
Member Avatar
ZOOOOOM!
Dewey
May 27 2011, 05:28 AM
DEP!!!
Dab?
I cite irreconcilable differences.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Renauda
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
May 27 2011, 04:53 AM
Do all these people need re-dunking in some huge bathtub, right where everyone can see their underwear and everything, or are they still going to heaven?

In that way they can proceed through the gates without undergoing the the full body scan.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
John D'Oh
Member Avatar
MAMIL
I should rename myself Johnny DEP.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Chris Aher
Member Avatar
Middle Aged Carp
John D'Oh
May 27 2011, 05:47 AM
I should rename myself Johnny DEP.
Da winnah an still champeen! :clap: :clap: :clap:
Regards,
Chris
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Der Fuhrer
Member Avatar
Junior Carp
:snooze:

Was ist los?


ach du lieber Gott! :deadhorse:
miss me yet?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
John D'Oh
Member Avatar
MAMIL
Der Fuhrer
May 27 2011, 06:38 AM
:snooze:

Was ist los?


ach du lieber Gott! :deadhorse:
Hey, Adolf, Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer?

Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
kluurs
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
God plays by God's rules and his interpretations - the "his game, his ball rule." The baptism thing isn't what trips up Christians as much as "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" or "lead us not into temptation" or "thy will be done" or "No human being must separate, then, what God has joined together" or "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart" or “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money" or "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:"

While Faith is a part of the message - so was a call to strive for behavioral action. Christ provided a message, a path and tools for salvation. I don't believe that whether one is baptized at birth or later or both has a lot to do with anything - maybe I'm wrong. God's rules - his ball - his game. For a non-Christian - watching Christians battle one another over this defeats Christ's message. The battles started even in early Christianity - as evidenced by Paul where he spoke of people saying they were a follower of Paul or Apollos" - missing what we are really supposed to be doing.

“Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity” (Colossians 4:5).

“Let your speech always be with grace,"

You all are in my prayers - we all need help.


Edited by kluurs, May 27 2011, 07:07 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ivorythumper
Member Avatar
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Larry
May 27 2011, 12:56 AM


Infant baptism was never part of the early church. I gave you a long list of highly regarded theologians down through history who stated that fact quite clearly.

Larry: you said you would only make scriptural arguments.

Since you have reneged on that agreement, we can now look at what the early Church ACTUALLY did and show again that you are wrong.


"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]). (yes, the parents can speak for the child -- as the ancient Jewish practice holds -- and yet you reject)

So we see evidence that you are incorrect about infant baptism in the early Church and wrong that "Infant baptism was never part of the early church".

"Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous"
Origen (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]). (clearly not a mark of repentance or of faith but of the REMISSION of sins)

"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" Origen (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]). (there's that "water and the Spirit" language which Jesus used .)

"As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" Cyprian of Carthage (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]). (again, the parallel to circumcision)

I have stopped there, since anything after Constantine you might argue that they were not real Christians. But these passages show that the early Church did baptise infants and in fact considered that infant baptism was something that the Apostles themselves did.

So again, you have to now show some texts that disprove or disapprove of the practice in the early Church.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ivorythumper
Member Avatar
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Larry
May 27 2011, 12:56 AM


One of the biggest flaws in the Catholic teaching about baptism is that you condemn everyone to hell who isn't a member of the Roman Catholic Church, every mentally handicapped person, every native in Borneo, and every human being who lived before the year 0. What a tiny little god you have, to set up such a legalistic requirement that one be baptized a Roman Catholic the minute he is born or he will not make it to heaven. My God is bigger than that.

That is not what the Church teaches.
Edited by ivorythumper, May 27 2011, 07:49 AM.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dewey
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Ken's right - I'm out for good on this one.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ivorythumper
Member Avatar
I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
kluurs
May 27 2011, 07:06 AM
“Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity” (Colossians 4:5).

“Let your speech always be with grace,"

You all are in my prayers - we all need help.


Thank you, Ken.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kincaid
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Dewey
May 27 2011, 07:37 AM
Ken's right - I'm out for good on this one.
:darthno: You were so close to WINNING!

:deadhorse:

:angel:
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dewey
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
^_^

"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Porky
Member Avatar
Newbie
bu de bu de bu de bu de That's All Folks!

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Axtremus
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Dewey
May 27 2011, 07:37 AM
Ken's right - I'm out for good on this one.
No he's not! Don't be a quitter, man. It's just getting good, too. So keep going!

:popcorn:
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
big al
Member Avatar
Bull-Carp


link

Big Al

Location: Western PA

"jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen."
-bachophile
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dewey
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Hmm.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Larry
Member Avatar
Mmmmmmm, pie!
"Many churches that baptize infants, such as the Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Reformed, Anglican, Methodist, Lutheran, Moravian, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox denominations, previously functioned as national, state-established churches in various European and Latin American countries. During the Reformation, the relationship of the church to the state was a contentious issue, and infant baptism was seen as a way to ensure that society remained religiously homogeneous. As a result, groups that rejected infant baptism were seen as subversive and were often persecuted."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Believer%27s_baptism


Baptism is not what saves you, and it is not necessary for that. Scripture makes this clear. Infant baptism will not save the infant. Scripture makes this clear.

From Schaff’s history of the church regarding baptism in the ancient church:

"In reviewing the patristic doctrine of baptism which was sanctioned by the Greek and Roman, and, with some important modifications, also by the Lutheran and Anglican churches, we should remember that during the first three centuries, and even in the age of Constantine, adult baptism was the rule, and that the actual conversion of the candidate was required as a condition before administering the sacrament (as is still the case on missionary ground). Hence in preceding catechetical instruction, the renunciation of the devil, and the profession of faith. But when the same high view is applied without qualification to infant baptism, we are confronted at once with the difficulty that infants cannot comply with this condition. They may be regenerated (this being an act of God), but they cannot be converted, i.e., they cannot repent and believe, nor do they need repentance, having not yet committed any actual transgression. Infant baptism is an act of consecration, and looks to subsequent instruction and personal conversion, as a condition to full membership of the church. Hence confirmation came in as a supplement to infant baptism."




Of the Pokatwat Tribe

Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic »
Add Reply