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| If the rapture really happens tomorrow . . .; AKA . . . the Good Bye Thread | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 20 2011, 01:21 PM (12,104 Views) | |
| ivorythumper | May 26 2011, 10:38 AM Post #701 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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But I have actually pointed out errors where you can't even get correct what I am writing. So at least my view has some objective validity to it.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | May 26 2011, 10:44 AM Post #702 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I don't need to show you that. Household itself implies family. Family implies children. And Peter in Acts clearly extends the promises of baptism to the children (techna) You would have to have some weird model that only people who didn't have children were baptized as households. Apart from any explicit evidence either way, which is more probable: that the first Christians who were baptized as a whole household didn't have any children, or that the first Christians who were baptized as a whole household did have children? Which way would you bet? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Larry | May 26 2011, 10:52 AM Post #703 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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I would bet that the way to solve the dilemma would be to do what we're supposed to do, and that would be to interpret it in context with all other scripture. When you do that, you find that your version doesn't fit.
That's actually funny....... hahahahahahaha |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | May 26 2011, 10:55 AM Post #704 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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So in the context of Acts 2:38, you would interpret it to mean that the promise of baptism does apply to the infants, and that therefore the "whole household" presumably did include infants? So do I, for the record. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | May 26 2011, 10:56 AM Post #705 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Kind of like the person laughing who didn't get the joke, huh?
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | May 26 2011, 10:57 AM Post #706 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Otherwise, you have to hold some weird model that only people who didn't have children were baptized as households. Seems improbable. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Horace | May 26 2011, 11:21 AM Post #707 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I would say that the majority of religious people in the world today have never had much of a critical-thinking based issue with their faith. I come from a family of Christians and I went to church for 18 years. I'm aware that the path of critical thinking is simply never seriously taken, even for the purposes of refuting it. Except in one case - when a critical thinker explains why they think it's all nonsense. Then of course all of Christendom is eager to pretend that they've had all of those thoughts "just like you", but were saved by a Magic Experience. |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
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| musicasacra | May 26 2011, 11:53 AM Post #708 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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My experience is different. I think people follow faith and church with the family growing up, then off to college, etc. There may be some people who trod on in the family tradition without much thought, but I think many people reexamine, ask questions, delve deeper into what they grew up believing. And what faith they practice they've considered and embraced on their own. It's no longer what was mostly handed to them, but conscious and participatory in a new way. |
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| Dewey | May 26 2011, 12:02 PM Post #709 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I don't doubt that's the case with many in the faith. It isn't my experience, though, and it isn't what I try to instil in the members of my congregation through my sermons and my Adult Ed classes. To me, finding, understanding and living the faith is far more about asking questions than having answers doled out to you. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Horace | May 26 2011, 12:22 PM Post #710 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Nothing whack job about it, it is fundamental to us that we have a propensity to believe what we want to believe and what our social group wants us to believe. Some people have a stronger propensity towards this than others. In fact I believe that I lack a certain genetic ability, rather than that I have an over-abundance of some genetic ability. |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
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| Renauda | May 26 2011, 12:38 PM Post #711 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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No wonder, I meant to write paleontology. So did your butt hurt at the end of those trips. |
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| Nobody's Sock | May 26 2011, 01:19 PM Post #712 |
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Fulla-Carp
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so close to 30, whodathot? |
| "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." | |
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| ivorythumper | May 26 2011, 01:37 PM Post #713 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I have no idea if you're a good guy or not. That has nothing to do with anything. I appreciate you finally being honest with me that you think I am a liar and a deceiver. I would rather know that you think me so, than have you as a false friend thinking that you respected me. I can deal with your views of me -- it is far better to know what you really think than not know. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | May 26 2011, 01:46 PM Post #714 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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No, people are not so simple. But I can sit down and talk in mutual respect with people with profound differences. Friendliness/ civility are one thing-- calling someone deceitful doesn't even rise to that -- but friendship is something else. We can have valid differing opinions about a lot of things -- we can even be absolutely factually wrong about a lot of things. To assume someone is lying and deceitful -- and to publicly say so -- is another issue all together. If I think someone's character is so bereft of virtue that I would publicly say, not that I disagreed with them, but that they were actually deceitful, I would not have them as friends. And I certainly would not welcome them into my home again. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Moonbat | May 26 2011, 02:25 PM Post #715 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Well that's fair enough but surely there is a difference between saying there's something about the way someone debates that's not quite honest and calling someone lying and deceitful. The entire point scoring mentality that exists in most forum debates is not quite honest, nor is the way almost all debaters selectively ignore their opponents strongest points, nor is the moving of the goal posts during the debate, nor are a million other things about these kinds of debates (e.g. your opponent demanding that you tell him what Catholicism says about X _after_ he's already proclaimed it's wrong about X). But none of these objections are in quite the same league as saying someone is lying and deceitful. Atleast not to my mind. Edited by Moonbat, May 26 2011, 02:25 PM.
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| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| ivorythumper | May 26 2011, 02:29 PM Post #716 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Nor to my mind, Moonbat. But even in the way someone else debates (to use your example herein) I would not say my interlocutor was deceitful or dishonest, I would simply point out the obvious flaw in his argument. That is a different matter than attacking the integrity of someone's character. Edited by ivorythumper, May 26 2011, 02:34 PM.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Renauda | May 26 2011, 03:02 PM Post #717 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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And you do it so condescendingly sweet and with such subtle mock flattery that your interlocuter becomes only too willing to bend over and grab his ankles and beg you for more. We've seen it before. In fact your doing it right now with Kenny, Moonbat and, to a lesser extent, with Larry. |
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| Larry | May 26 2011, 07:02 PM Post #718 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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See, this is why you can't understand scripture. You just make up stuff. I would NOT interpret that verse that way, because to do so makes it contradict other scripture, meaning your interpretation is wrong, and the verse doesn't say anything about infants being in these families. The way I would interpret if would be that since there's nothing in the verse that says infants were involved, then the question of whether or not infants were involved is best answered by choosing the answer that allows the verse to read in harmony with the rest of scripture. At least, that's the correct way to do it. When you do that, you have no choice but to assume there were no infants involved. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| kenny | May 26 2011, 07:13 PM Post #719 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Lar, I almost Google The Pokatwat Tribe in your sig line, till I got it.
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| Larry | May 26 2011, 07:14 PM Post #720 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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You're having to make some of the strangest leaps of logic to make things square with your theology.. No, "family" does not imply children. Is a man and wife who have never had any children any less a family than the man and wife who has? Does a man and his wife with one of their elderly parents living with them not qualify as a family? Since it doesn't fit with other scripture, is it possible you're not supposed to read such a narrow definition of family into things in that verse? As for Peter extending baptism to children, that in no way proves your claim that those children were infants. Is a 12 year old a child? Can a 12 year old be mature enough to CHOOSE to accept Christ on his own? Sure he could.
Well, if you didn't get the joke, I'm sorry. I got the joke, that's why I laughed. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Larry | May 26 2011, 07:25 PM Post #721 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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You couldn't prove that by this thread... in fact, the very reason I was so careful to spell it out as clearly as possible that I was not trying to ridicule anyone's religion, and that I did not want it to descend into personal attacks, and wanted it to stay a civil discussion about our different religious beliefs was because I already knew from observing you in the past that the instant anyone says anything that disagrees with the Roman Catholic Church you instantly jump into a combative and sarcastic mode. Interesting comment Moonbat made about moving the goalposts, however. If people were to actually go back and notice some of the things you've argued they would see that you have moved the goalposts numerous times now. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | May 26 2011, 07:29 PM Post #722 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Larry -- you made up a whole group of first century Christian households without a single child. That is the only way your interpretation works, right? You've also made up a first century Jewish culture where the religion of the parents did not determine the religion of the children. That is the only way your interpretation works, right? You've also made up a whole couple of generations of Christians whose children were only baptized at some future point, even though we have absolutely no record of children of adult converts being later baptized. That is the only why your interpretation works, right? None of these ideas stand up to the weight of reason or what we know about first century Jewish social life or any textual evidence. But still you must INSIST on them, right? So you HAVE to believe that they were living in a massively improbable world -- without a single comment from Jesus or Peter or Paul like "hey, that whole 8th day circumcision business? Ignore that!!! You can't dedicate your children to God anymore!!!" But what you are missing in all of these passages about "belief" and "repent" is that obviously Jesus and Peter and Paul would be talking to adults, and that is what an adult needs to do to become a Christian. Your mistake is thinking that Jesus can't make Christians out of infants and children through the faith of their parents and simple baptism into the community. That of course immediately allows all the verses to be read in complete harmony with one another -- and you don't have to make strange conjectures about who didn't have children in the first century. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| kenny | May 26 2011, 07:30 PM Post #723 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Larry himself is #1 in Google ranking!
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| Aqua Letifer | May 26 2011, 07:31 PM Post #724 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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kenny, do you have any intention at all of answering IT's question about what you mean by "Christian Gladiators"? |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| Dewey | May 26 2011, 07:34 PM Post #725 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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kai tois teknois = "for your children." It doesn't mean "for your children above a certain age," it means "for your children" - i.e., all of them. Again, Larry, you are espousing a theology of believers-only baptism (credobaptism). As asked before, can you make a scriptural argument that shows that baptism is exclusively a sign of a believer's decision to repent and follow Jesus? And can you offer a scriptural argument that baptism excludes children of any age under the age of reason, whether infant or not? And as also asked before, what about your mentally disabled cousin - should he be baptized, or is it a purely symbolic act, through which God really does nothing, and which does God not want your cousin and and others like him to be part of? I keep asking these questions, and not seeing any answers - and I'm really looking. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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11:27 AM Jul 11