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| If the rapture really happens tomorrow . . .; AKA . . . the Good Bye Thread | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 20 2011, 01:21 PM (12,106 Views) | |
| Larry | May 26 2011, 07:16 AM Post #651 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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The discussion concerning baptism that I was having was concerning the Catholic teaching that it is baptism which saves you. The verse you have quoted in no way gives support to the argument that being baptized saves you. As with all other scripture, it must be understood in light of all other scripture, and when one does so it is clear that it is the act of repenting that is important to that aim, not baptism. Now, understanding that Catholicism teaches that it is the act of baptism which saves you, a teaching which I have shown with the quoted Catholic catechism, understand that the reason Catholics believe it is so important to baptize an infant is to save it. No case has been made scripturally to support that notion, nor can it be. Baptism is an act of obedience. Ephesians 2:8,9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast. " Clearly, you are saved by God's grace, not because of baptism, or any other "work". Baptism is an outward testimony of an inward change. As the verse above shows, baptism is not what saves you, that happens the moment you place your faith in Jesus Christ. Being baptized is a visible testimony to that faith. So the question becomes, "who should be baptized". The Bible makes it clear that it is believers who should be baptized. Acts 2:41: "Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day." ----they accepted - THEN they were baptized. Acts 8:12: "But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." Acts 8:36,37: "As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?" Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” ------- He believed - THEN was baptized. Acts 10:43, 44, 47: "All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message." ""Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." ----they received the Holy Spirit - THEN they were baptized. When the Philippian jailer asked, "What must I do to be saved?" they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved...." (Acts 16:30-34). Paul did not tell him to be baptized to be saved. His baptism came AFTER his believing, which sets the scriptural standard. So - who should be baptized? If you follow the pattern established in scripture, only those who have heard and accepted, and believe. Infants have not heard, they cannot accept it, nor believe it. And until an infant is capable of hearing, accepting, and believing, that infant has no reason to be baptized, because the act of baptism is for believers, people who have actively made the choice to accept the message, who are saved by their faith, not by their works, and who then actively give testimony to that change by submitting to baptism. When should one be baptized? After you have accepted and believed. Nothing in scripture says a person needs to be baptized again, or for any other reason.
No, he is not. He is not mentally capable of understanding. He is therefore, not capable of accepting, or having faith. And those things, according to scripture, must take place first.
I don't consider it a "golden ticket", but I have already given you scriptural proof that those who have not heard the "Good news", whether it be because they simply haven't heard it or because they are not mentally able to heard it, are not judged the same way. So we're dealing with 3 issues: 1. Those who have not or cannot hear the message and make a decision, 2. Those who have heard the message and actively accepted it - "belief", and 3. Those who have heard the message and actively rejected it - "unbelief". According to scripture, the only group among the 3 that should engage in the outward expression of their faith by being baptized are those in the second group, or, those who have heard the message and accepted it through faith. Not infants. Not mentally handicapped. Not unbelievers. Not natives isolated from all civilization in Borneo. Only those who have been saved through grace, which comes from believing. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| kenny | May 26 2011, 07:18 AM Post #652 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I will not step onto IT's merry go round. In this very thread, Larry posted to IT something like, "Why do I even waste my time talking to you?" IT has a way of writing that is messed up. It is trickery and not honest. |
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| Larry | May 26 2011, 07:38 AM Post #653 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Kenny, isn't God wonderful? Even a heathen like me, a man who is weak, filled with flaws, incapable of living the life he knows he should live - can be saved by the power of Jesus' sacrificial gift for all men. You can too, Kenny. You know, I used to think the way you do. I thought God was a myth, Christians were fools, and the whole thing was just a bunch of silly nonsense. I looked around me and saw that those who called themselves religious were for the most part not that much different from me. So what was the point in falling for such nonsense. I was too smart for that. Then I had an experience in my life that put me squarely in God's presence. Now I had a problem, Kenny. God was just a cartoon character in a book of myths, not something that was real. But there he was, and I had to face that. So I began to read the book that claimed to be inspired by God, that "book of myths and legends" that I had no use for. Let me tell you what I found, Kenny. Cut through all of it, and I found that for a nearly 2,000 year span of time, one message was being sent about a coming savior. POPPYCOCK!!! Then I found that a man named Jesus came who claimed to be that savior. POPPYCOCK!!! Then I noticed something, Kenny. I noticed that the men who told about this coming savior over a 2,000 year period of time ALL described this person in such minute detail that it read like an eyewitness account. Then I read that this "savior" claimed to rise from the dead, just as he said he would, and just as those men had said he would for the 2,000 years before he was even born, when they were writing about him so clearly that it read like an eyewitness account. So it all came down to this, Kenny. If Jesus actually rose from the dead, then he was exactly who he claimed to be, and the things he said mean something. So I studied that, Kenny. Guess what I found? I found that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the most provable facts in history. There is more evidence to prove the story of Jesus Christ than there is evidence to prove that Plato existed, yet no one questions the existence of Plato. So I realized then and there Kenny, that as bad as I was, as unworthy as I was, I could find God. So can you, Kenny. If you think I'm a heathen now, you wouldn't believe the heathen I used to be. Compared to what I used to be, I'm a saint. That's what's so great about it all, Kenny. You don't have to be perfect to be saved. All you have to do is admit who you are, and accept the gift of God's grace. It will change you, Kenny. It changed me. Even though I am still not what I should be, it changed me. It can change you too, Kenny. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| kenny | May 26 2011, 07:50 AM Post #654 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Lar you are perfect just as you are, so is Dewey and IT and everyone else on the planet. We all do, think, pick and choose, believe whatever the hell we want. ![]() The problem is all 3 of you think YOUR way applies to everyone else. It's intolerance of diversity. |
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| Renauda | May 26 2011, 07:53 AM Post #655 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I just call it bogus chicanery. Fair enough. You still look silly masquerading as a Mumillo. |
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| Larry | May 26 2011, 07:55 AM Post #656 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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"Intolerance of diversity" is a buzzword, and an excuse, Kenny. Here's the thing, Kenny. It isn't necessary to crawl through all the legalistic bullsh!t that religious organizations weight it all down with. None of that crap matters. What matters is this, Kenny - GOD IS. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| kenny | May 26 2011, 07:56 AM Post #657 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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God was a great idea . . . made up and agreed with. Nothing wrong with that. Enjoy. Just leave others alone be be/believe/not believe as the want. Guess what . . . Others are not you. |
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| Larry | May 26 2011, 08:01 AM Post #658 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Where have I asked you to be me, Kenny? Where have I said you need to believe what I believe? It's your choice what you believe, Kenny. I'm just telling you what I believe, and why. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| kenny | May 26 2011, 08:04 AM Post #659 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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You say you read the Bible. The Bible says to convert everyone. |
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| kenny | May 26 2011, 08:05 AM Post #660 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Sh!t - now I stepped onto that stupid merry go round.
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| Renauda | May 26 2011, 08:10 AM Post #661 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I told you so. |
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| Luke's Dad | May 26 2011, 08:10 AM Post #662 |
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Emperor Pengin
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No it doesn't. |
| The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it. | |
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| Larry | May 26 2011, 08:11 AM Post #663 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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No it doesn't, Kenny. It says to tell you that Jesus Christ died for you, and that he rose from the dead. From there it's your decision. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Horace | May 26 2011, 08:16 AM Post #664 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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"Everybody else is like me" is inherent in the common sales pitch one hears from religious folk about once having been a non-believer "just like you" and then having the Magic Experience. Since those Magic Experiences are, in every case, products of subjective perception, what they're really saying is that if you saw what I saw you'd believe too. And that is nonsense. I'm familiar with the lame stories people tuck away deep in their minds that serve as the bedrock of their faith. They hate telling other people those stories because they hate subjecting the stories to the harsh light of other people's minds. |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
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| Larry | May 26 2011, 08:24 AM Post #665 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Well Horace, you're certainly free to think that's what I'm doing, but it's not. I said nothing about a "magical experience". I told you what caused me to study the issue. It's not a "sales pitch" to me, I don't care whether you or Kenny or anyone else chooses to believe in God or not. I'm not responsible for you. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Larry | May 26 2011, 08:34 AM Post #666 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Thinking on what you said a little further Horace, it occurred to me that by necessity *everyone* who decides to believe in God is going to refer to the time when they didn't. Unless you think there are some people out there who were just born believing and didn't ever have a time when they didn't believe. It's like a guy who drives Fords all his life, and then one day buys a Chevy and decides that he likes Chevys much more than he likes Fords. He's going to refer to a time "before Chevy". |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | May 26 2011, 08:34 AM Post #667 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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No, you are not. The Church never positively states anyone is in hell. You (like all of us) are responsible for working out your salvation -- be a good person, love your family and your fellow man, trust in God (even if just an assent in the quiet of your own heart asking for the grace to be a better person), and seek the truth. We leave the judging up to God since he is (if anything) love and desires nothing more than all of our happiness. Srsly, I have strong concerns about the Pauline/ Augustinian/ Calvinist/ Jansenistic emphases on the relationship of God to man in juridical and judgmental terms. There is a sense of truth to this, but it is must also be understood in relationship to the love and healing and mercy message of Christ as the divine physician. The doctrine of original sin is better understood as an original wound, which Christ heals. The reality of the brokenness of the human condition should be beyond controversy, but how that condition is understood, in what language, and what remedy Christ brings is yet to be fully appreciated. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Larry | May 26 2011, 08:37 AM Post #668 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Note that IT pays attention to what the Church says, not what scripture says. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| RosemaryThree | May 26 2011, 08:37 AM Post #669 |
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Advanced Member
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Don't offend me, Dough Boy. ![]() Edited by RosemaryThree, May 26 2011, 08:38 AM.
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| Yeah, whatever. | |
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| Copper | May 26 2011, 08:38 AM Post #670 |
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Shortstop
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From the guy who has spent years of his life ridiculing the forumites. |
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The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
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| Renauda | May 26 2011, 08:43 AM Post #671 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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So Coprolite, what's new in your world of paleology? |
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| Copper | May 26 2011, 08:48 AM Post #672 |
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Shortstop
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On rapture day I ascended into the heavens about a half dozen times and came back with my clothes on each time. No big deal. |
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The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy | |
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| ivorythumper | May 26 2011, 08:49 AM Post #673 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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At this point I have to assume you are actually incapable of reading with comprehension. The passage you quoted from the Catechism does not in fact teach that the act of baptism saves you.
Jesus saves us. The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation which is to say, this is the way that Jesus wants us to enter the Kingdom and to be incorporated into the Body of Christ and to receive the Holy Spirit. Scripture positively teaches the by baptism we are incorporated into the Body of Christ. How can one have salvation if one is not a member of the Body of Christ? (of course God can act anyway he pleases, but he has told us how we are to do it). Scripture positively teaches that in baptism we "put on Christ" and "receive the Holy Spirit" -- this is the normative way that Christians are made because Jesus said so and the apostles did so in following him. In baptism, Christ grants us salvation since we are participating in his passion death and resurrection (as Scripture attests). Jesus does so objectively through the sacrament of baptism since he told us he would. He can also do so any other way he pleases, but in his love he gives an objective method so that we can be assured of salvation as we live our lives as Christians. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | May 26 2011, 08:50 AM Post #674 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Tell me where in Scripture it says anyone specifically is in hell. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | May 26 2011, 08:52 AM Post #675 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Really, Kenny? Wow. I am glad to finally learn what you really think of me. So you are a false friend, huh? I welcomed you into my home. I shared my meals with you. And all the time you were evidently just looking for a place for the night so you wouldn't have to pay for a hotel and a restaurant, huh? *THAT* to me is trickery and not honest. You fooled me with your pretense of friendship. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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11:27 AM Jul 11