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If the rapture really happens tomorrow . . .; AKA . . . the Good Bye Thread
Topic Started: May 20 2011, 01:21 PM (12,107 Views)
John D'Oh
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MAMIL
OK, Sue, how's this for a deal - you get to have a bit of midnight how's-your-father as Bellatrix Lestrange around the back of the broom-cupboards with old Severus?

I've always had a bit of a secret hankering for Bella.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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George K
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Finally
Other than the "cooking" "photo" and other "non-discussion" threads, this thread has achieved the honor of being the fourth-longest in TNCR history (in terms of responses, at least).

Well done, TNCR. Well done indeed! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Posted Image

Only 25 24 more posts required to reach #2!
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
So 89, Daniel and Quirt are better troublemaking pot-stirrers than I? :weeping:

Let's see, what do we all four have in common?
Oh Yeah! Larry LOVES us ALL!
BWAHAHAHAHA.

Actually we must credit our 3 Christian Gladiators IT, Dewey and Lar. :Worship:
I'll bet they'll start up again . . . if someone can think of something good to get the merry go round spinning . . .
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George K
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Finally
kenny
May 25 2011, 02:52 PM
So 89, Daniel and Quirt are better troublemaking pot stirrers I? :weeping:
Just for now, Kenny. There's hope. A lot of hope. I doubt this'll get a thousand posts, but there's great potential for #2.

And, considering that I just posted twice, D'Oh and you did, we're well on our way! :thumb:
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
George K
May 25 2011, 02:49 PM
Other than the "cooking" "photo" and other "non-discussion" threads
You think this counts as a discussion thread? :lol: :lol: :lol:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
May 25 2011, 02:48 PM
OK, Sue, how's this for a deal - you get to have a bit of midnight how's-your-father as Bellatrix Lestrange around the back of the broom-cupboards with old Severus?

I've always had a bit of a secret hankering for Bella.
That works for me. I like the broom cupboard setting, too. Dark and naughty.
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George K
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Finally
John D'Oh
May 25 2011, 02:54 PM
George K
May 25 2011, 02:49 PM
Other than the "cooking" "photo" and other "non-discussion" threads
You think this counts as a discussion thread? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Not any more. :hat:
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Larry
May 25 2011, 06:46 AM
An infant is not responsible for wiping his own butt, fixing his own meals, or making weighty decisions.
Right, which is precisely why these matters are properly entrusted to the parents -- hence the faith of the parents is sufficient to stand in proxy for the child of the intent to become a Christian just like in the Jewish culture :"As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord" and the circumcision was applied to all males in the household (Gen 17:12) and the patriarch stands before God for the whole household (Genesis 35:2)-- hence why Peter in Acts tells people that the promises of baptism extend to the children and Peter baptized the whole household of Cornelius, and Paul baptised the whole household of his jailer and why Lydia believed and the whole household was baptized (acts 16 -- nothing saying "except for the children"). The same of Crispus and his whole household in Acts 18. And 1 Cor 1:16 where Paul baptised the whole household of Stephanas.

Now you would have to make some argument in the face of Scripture that "the whole household" does not include infants and children. Please show me those passages.

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An infant is an infant. If there is a God, and if there is an afterlife, it all hinges on Jesus being who he said he was - NOT the Roman Catholic Church. Going with the assumption that Jesus was who he said he was, then if you want to know what happens to babies when they die, pay attention to what scripture has to say on the matter, not what a religion has to say on the matter.

There is no scripture that says an infant goes to heaven when it dies. There is no scripture that says an infant does NOT go to heaven when it dies. That doesn't mean scripture is silent on the issue. Scripture says that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for EVERYONE, and that it is the UNBELIEVER who will not go to heaven. How can a baby be an unbeliever? It can't. How can a man born and raised in the deepest most remote areas of the rain forest, a man who has never seen another human being outside his little clan, be an unbeliever? How could all the people who lived and died in oh.... China before the year 0 be unbelievers? None of them had even heard of Jesus Christ, or Moses, or Judaism, or Christianity - to "unbelieve" in. What happens to them? Little babies cannot be "unbelievers" - so it is not necessary for the CHURCH to do a thing for them, any more than it is necessary for the Church to do anything for those people who lived and died without ever having heard what it is they are to believe in. You are condemned by the active decision to NOT BELIEVE. A baby cannot actively make that decision.


interesting theory. I have yet to see you post any scriptural quotations to support that though. Wasn't that the agreement-- that we would both post from Scripture???
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So if you want to get your kid baptized, fine. Nothing wrong with it. It's a nice little ceremony that can bring you some good "Kodak moments". But baptizing someone who is not capable of actively choosing to not believe in the belief that this is going to save its soul is not only not scriptural, it's ridiculous. I have a cousin who is severely mentally handicapped. If you ask him if he "believes in Jesus", he just grins. He has no idea what you mean. He thinks you're talking about Santa Claus. If you follow the IT and Dewey's logic, my cousin is going to die and go to hell. Sorry, but that's not scriptural. My cousin is not mentally capable of deciding whether he believes in the saving grace of Jesus Christ's death on the cross. He is not capable of even grasping the concept of it. When he dies, he will die never having made an active decision to NOT BELIEVE, and if anyone is in heaven, it will be him.

again, interesting assertions -- now just show me the Scriptures to support your views.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
kenny
May 25 2011, 02:52 PM

Actually we must credit our 3 Christian Gladiators IT, Dewey and Lar. :Worship:
Again Kenny, please tell me why you call us Christian gladiators? Are you do so to mock us, or belittle us? Are you meaning to insult us? Is it a term of derision? I've asked you time and again and I have not seen an answer. Please do so. Thanks.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
8.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
9.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
10.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
nteresting theory. I have yet to see you post any scriptural quotations to support that though. Wasn't that the agreement-- that we would both post from Scripture???



Quote:
 
Scripture says that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for EVERYONE


(1 John 2:2) And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(John 12:32) And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
(Luke 2:10) Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
(John 4:42) we have heard Him ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.
(1 John 4:14) We have seen, and do testify, that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
(John 1:29) Brethren, Jesus tasted death for every man, even for those who will not receive Him, in order to take away the sin of the world : Perfecting Salvation for those who would receive Him.

Those are a few of the verses that show that Jesus paid the penalty for everyone. But as the last one says, you have to receive him, in other words, he paid the penalty, now it is up to you to accept his gift. You do that by believing. To do that of course, one must be aware of this choice. Infants, isolated native tribes in Borneo, those who never heard about him, are/were never aware of this choice. You can't make a choice about something if you don't even know about it, so he *still* paid their penalty.

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and that it is the UNBELIEVER who will not go to heaven.


If you've never heard of Jesus Christ, you can't believe in him or NOT believe in him. You don't even know there's a choice to be made. Once you have heard however, now you have a choice to make. Either you believe, or you don't. You don't need more scripture to prove that point, common sense tells you this.

Scripture itself says that unbelievers who have never heard or read Scripture will not be condemned by it. They will be condemned according to the law written on their hearts and not according to the law written in Scripture. However, as soon as unbelievers come in contact with Scripture, they are bound to hear and obey it.

Romans 2:12-15: For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.

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You are condemned by the active decision to NOT BELIEVE.


The "unpardonable sin" is "He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness." - Mark 3:29 What is the Holy Spirit? It is God's active principle in the world. How do you blaspheme the Holy Spirit? By not believing. Actively making the decision to not believe. "And by him that believe are justified from all things." - Acts 13:39

The whole thing comes down to that choice. Spread the "good news" - tell people about Jesus Christ, and his gift of salvation. If they accept it, they have actively chosen to believe. If they reject it, they have actively chosen NOT to believe. But until they have heard it, they cannot make that choice. Infants cannot "hear" it. They cannot make that choice.


Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I've always struggled with this idea of belief being the most important thing. And when I say 'struggle', what I mean is I thought it was bollocks. We don't really choose our beliefs, they are mostly a sub-conscious decision, at least they are for me. I can't suddenly decide to believe in the virgin birth, or that the Pope is infallible, or that Jesus died to save our sins. All I can do is say I believe, and secretly continue to think 'hmmmmmm.....'.

The only thing I really have some level of conscious control over is my actions.

According to Christian doctrine, my subconscious is sending me to hell, however well I behave. Thoughtcrime, in other words.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
Quote:
 

We don't really choose our beliefs, they are mostly a sub-conscious decision, at least they are for me.


Quote:
 

The only thing I really have some level of conscious control over is my actions.


Ding. Those two sentences demolish a heck of lot of theology.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Big Brother is watching.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry, now you're making a scriptural argument that a person is called to believe in Christ; that unbelievers will not be reconciled with God; and that children under the age of reason and others incapable for whatever reason of making such a choice are not subject to the same kind of judgment as those capable of making such a decision. So far, so good. And for what it's worth, I agree with your argument.

But you haven't tied the understandings of belief to the act of baptism yet. This is what I've been talking about when I ask you about your "theology of baptism," and it's why I asked you earlier if I'd framed your understanding of baptism correctly in this manner:

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1. Baptism is a sign that a person has repented of his/her sins, and is professing faith in Jesus Christ.

2. Because of that, baptism is only appropriate for a person who is above the age of reason, and who is able to consciously make a decision to profess faith in Jesus Christ. A child of any age who is below the age of reason should not be baptized. If a parent wants to recognize the birth of their child, they may have a "christening" or similar service.

3. Children who are below the age of reason are under the protection of God's grace, and if they die, they will enter into God's kingdom, without having been baptized, since baptism is something only appropriate to people over the age of reason.

Are those three points correct? Would you change those statements? Would you add to them?


That's what I'm getting out of your words; is that a fair summary of your beliefs? That's a very common understanding of baptism, and it sounds like it's yours as well. It was also my own understanding of baptism for a good portion of my life. I can't remember for certain, but I think you had offered scriptural references regarding believing and being baptized. I'll offer just one as an example, passages like

Quote:
 
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit...


Clearly, in this instance Peter describes both belief/repentance, and baptism; and that baptism should always follow a turning to Christ. But that does not necessarily mean that that's the only time that baptism is appropriate:

"If I choose turn to Christ and become part of God's covenant people, I should be baptized" =/= "The only appropriate time for baptism is after a person has made a conscious choice to turn to Christ"

If you believe that they are equal, or at least both correct - in other words, to have a theology of "believers-only" baptism; the understanding I outlined in my three points - then you should be able to make an argument from scripture that such is the case. Why, based on scripture, do you believe that baptism is a sign of what the believer has chosen, rather than it being something else, and appropriate in settings other than an adult who has chosen to follow Christ and be grafted into God's covenant people? More specifically, IT has cited examples in the scriptures where entire households, including its children, were baptized upon the profession of faith of one or both of the parents. If baptism is only a sign that a person has consciously chosen to believe in Christ, how do you explain these scriptural accounts? How do you explain Peter's continuation of the passage I quoted above:

Quote:
 
...For the promise is for you, for your children, and for all who are far away, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him.”


How do you understand that passage, including the comment that it is applicable to those "whom the Lord calls to him," and not "to those who choose to come to him"?

Profession of faith and baptism are two distinct, separate things. Can you offer a scriptural argument to support your understanding that baptism is reserved only for those who have professed faith in Christ, and that it is strictly a sign of that person's decision? Can you offer a scriptural refutation that it is not something else, and that it is not to be given to children and others who are not able to make a decision to follow Christ as their Lord?

In accordance with your theology of baptism, is your mentally disable cousin eligible for baptism? If baptism is only a sign of one's decision to follow Christ, and should be reserved reserved only for those able to make such a decision, it would sound like you don't think he would. Or do you consider baptism of your cousin to be unnecessary; that he's got a golden ticket to heaven already, so baptism doesn't really apply to him? If that's part of your theology of baptism, can you offer scriptural support for those beliefs?
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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RosemaryTwo
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HOLY CARP!!!
Wait....

So in between debate over the meaning of scripture, we are negotiating hot and heavy moments with the staff at Hogwarts?

Snape is hot. Is that now what I need to consider? I need to form an opinion on this? I know my husband thinks he's the best....

So much to think about....
"Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Moonbat
May 26 2011, 04:22 AM
Quote:
 
We don't really choose our beliefs, they are mostly a sub-conscious decision, at least they are for me.
Quote:
 
The only thing I really have some level of conscious control over is my actions.
Ding. Those two sentences demolish a heck of lot of theology.


Exactly!
Since faith is a pretty word for pretending, theology is the study of the proper way to pretend. :doh:
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
RosemaryTwo
May 26 2011, 06:25 AM
Wait....

So in between debate over the meaning of scripture, we are negotiating hot and heavy moments with the staff at Hogwarts?

Snape is hot. Is that now what I need to consider? I need to form an opinion on this? I know my husband thinks he's the best....

So much to think about....
Rosemary 3 would make an exceptional Bellatrix. I see you more in the role of the sadly doomed Lily Potter.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
May 26 2011, 05:09 AM
Big Brother is watching.
Posted Image
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
May 26 2011, 04:13 AM

According to Christian doctrine, my subconscious is sending me to hell, however well I behave. Thoughtcrime, in other words.
What Christian doctrine are you talking about? That's certainly not the Catholic view.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
ivorythumper
May 26 2011, 06:52 AM
John D'Oh
May 26 2011, 04:13 AM

According to Christian doctrine, my subconscious is sending me to hell, however well I behave. Thoughtcrime, in other words.
What Christian doctrine are you talking about? That's certainly not the Catholic view.
If I doubt the very existence of God, and do not believe that Jesus was the son of God, I'm pretty much screwed, am I not?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
May 26 2011, 06:55 AM
ivorythumper
May 26 2011, 06:52 AM
John D'Oh
May 26 2011, 04:13 AM

According to Christian doctrine, my subconscious is sending me to hell, however well I behave. Thoughtcrime, in other words.
What Christian doctrine are you talking about? That's certainly not the Catholic view.
If I doubt the very existence of God, and do not believe that Jesus was the son of God, I'm pretty much screwed, am I not?
No.
Larry is proof Christians can get screwed a lot.

When questioned he tells you to back off and he reads the Bible so lots of sex outside marriage must be scriptural.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Hey Kenny. You look ridiculous:

Posted Image

Now answer IT's question. Even though I am on his ignore list, I would at least give him the decency of an answer if asked.
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