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If the rapture really happens tomorrow . . .; AKA . . . the Good Bye Thread
Topic Started: May 20 2011, 01:21 PM (12,109 Views)
Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
 
I just wish Jesus had produced a marauders map like they gave to Harry Potter - then we could figure out who were the real Christians, who are the followers of the Dark Lord, and more importantly, which of us is the House Elf.


I had to google that:

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/House_Elf
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
May 25 2011, 10:54 AM
Horace
May 25 2011, 10:47 AM
I never feel like more of an alien than when I see normal intelligent people arguing about a book of magic spells that will make them immortal.
I just wish Jesus had produced a marauders map like they gave to Harry Potter - then we could figure out who were the real Christians, who are the followers of the Dark Lord, and more importantly, which of us is the House Elf.
If you look around at everyone and there is no house elf, guess that makes you it!
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Better a House Elf than the girl who lives in the U-bend!
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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The 89th Key
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ivorythumper
May 25 2011, 09:57 AM
The 89th Key
May 25 2011, 09:43 AM
IT - in reading your post about baptism, I had a general question. I was baptized (by my father and his friend, who is now a pastor) when I was about 12, in a river (with a few family/friends on the bank watching) in a very humble and honest manner.

1) Does this count, in your opinion, based on scripture?
2) Would the Catholic church recognize this, if (hypothetically :biggrin: ) I were to join a Catholic church?

I'm comfortable knowing that I was baptized, but just curious on your perspective/knowledge.
Any baptism is valid if administered in a Trinitarian form with the intent to be baptized.

Eg., "I baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit"

All that is required is the willingness of the person to be baptized, and to use real water -- this is not required that a priest or a deacon do it, any Christian can baptize someone else.
Thanks, just curious. And yes it was done in the Trinitarian form...verbally as well as physically (dunked 3 times).
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
 
Better a House Elf than the girl who lives in the U-bend!


That, living in the U bend, would be purgatory.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Horace
May 25 2011, 10:47 AM
I never feel like more of an alien than when I see normal intelligent people arguing about a book of magic spells that will make them immortal.
Unreal, isn't it?
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
We should re-make the Harry Potter movies, but using TNCR personas in place of the regular characters. I could quite fancy myself as that sophisticated bloke with the long silver hair and the posh English accent. Then again, I'd quite fancy myself if I was bloody Hagrid.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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The 89th Key
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Regarding the winner of this debate, I must say it was pretty clear. However, I'd rather not be so rude as to come out and say it, but it reminds me of this poem:

I don't care when you fight
Violet, blue, black, or white
Only thing that matters is when
Rare are words when there's a pen
You, still, are my friend.

When you see the true meaning
Of this rhyme, complete scheming
Now, we come, to the end.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
The 89th Key
May 25 2011, 11:12 AM
Regarding the winner of this debate, I must say it was pretty clear.
It was me, wasn't it.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
 
We should re-make the Harry Potter movies, but using TNCR personas in place of the regular characters. I could quite fancy myself as that sophisticated bloke with the long silver hair and the posh English accent. Then again, I'd quite fancy myself if I was bloody Hagrid.


Why don't you start a thread on that topic just to see what sort of rapturous tidings of comfort and joy will reign rain down upon this flawed community of knee knockers.
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The 89th Key
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John D'Oh
May 25 2011, 11:12 AM
The 89th Key
May 25 2011, 11:12 AM
Regarding the winner of this debate, I must say it was pretty clear.
It was me, wasn't it.
You came in 3rd. :)
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Larry
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Quote:
 
All that is required is the willingness of the person to be baptized, and to use real water -- this is not required that a priest or a deacon do it, any Christian can baptize someone else


I suppose you are of the opinion then that infants are capable of telling their parents whether or not they are willing to be baptized?

You see, you have constructed such a maze of rules and regulations that you trip over your own feet.



Quote:
 
The Catholic practice of baptism is not primarily about saving people from hell


Quote:
 
"By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. ... The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are ‘reborn of water and the Spirit.’ God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism ... Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte ‘a new creature,’ an adopted son of God, who has become a ‘partaker of the divine nature,’ member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit. ... From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant” (The New Catholic Catechism, 1994, # 1263,1257,1265,1267).



Again, you trip over your own feet.


Quote:
 
This is being faithful to the words of 1 Cor 12;13 "For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body--whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."


Yet then your religion turns around and tries to tell me that it alone is the "one true religion".


Quote:
 
And faithful to the words of Gal 3:27 "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."


Typical of Catholicism, this takes scripture out of context. All scripture must be interpreted in light of all other scripture - and scripture makes it clear that first you must repent, and accept Jesus Christ. THEN baptism. As we see from the quotes above, those two steps are missing.


Quote:
 
And faithful to the words of Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."


There's that word "repent" your church says isn't necessary when they say "By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. ... The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude".

Seems you just proved my point.


Quote:
 
You see, Larry, the Catholic Church teaches ALL of the bible and the theology of baptism takes into account EVERYTHING that Scripture says about baptism.


As I have just shown, you are incorrect.


Quote:
 
Your theology is partial and incomplete and does not address how the baby is incorporated into the Body of Christ or how the infant is "clothed with Christ" or how the new born "receives the Holy Spirit".


No, sorry, but you are incorrect. My "theology" follows scripture, not some church interpretation of scripture. It is YOUR theology that is incomplete, which is why you feel such a need to rush out and baptize infants in order to save their souls when scripture makes it clear this is not how it works. An infant cannot "unbelieve". You just can't get that idea, because it goes completely against everything the Church has taught you.


Quote:
 
Unless of course you think that the child should not be incorporated into the Body of Christ, or be clothed with Christ, or receive the Holy Spirit -- in which case you would be one of those people Jesus was talking about in hindering the little children from coming to Him (Matthew 19:14).


Your inability to understand Matthew 19:14 is not my problem.


Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Horace
May 25 2011, 10:47 AM
I never feel like more of an alien than when I see normal intelligent people arguing about a book of magic spells that will make them immortal.
:lol2:
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Renauda
May 25 2011, 11:14 AM
John D'Oh
 
We should re-make the Harry Potter movies, but using TNCR personas in place of the regular characters. I could quite fancy myself as that sophisticated bloke with the long silver hair and the posh English accent. Then again, I'd quite fancy myself if I was bloody Hagrid.


Why don't you start a thread on that topic just to see what sort rapturous tidings of comfort and joy that will reign down upon this flawed community of knee knockers.
You'd make a pretty convincing Mad Eye Moody.

OK, who wants to be Dolores Umbridge?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Renauda
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I'll have to take your Word for it, John. I hope you have some good theology to support the casting.
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Klaus
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I was a Roman Catholic until I was 18 years old. ITs elaborations about the importance of all these acts which I consider to have purely symbolic (if any) value remind me why I left(*).

(*) OK, then there's also the church tax issue, but that's a different story ;)
Trifonov Fleisher Klaus Sokolov Zimmerman
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Moonbat
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Quote:
 

Regarding the winner of this debate, I must say it was pretty clear.


Moonbat winz again.

Edit: Wait I wasn't in this one. Damn.
Edited by Moonbat, May 25 2011, 11:49 AM.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Renauda
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But you were here in spirit.
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Dewey
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Quote:
 
Combine those two things, and he enjoys getting "even".


My comments to you have nothing to do with getting even, and everything to do with pointing out that you're doing a really poor job of making a case for your position. I understand your position, Larry. I shared that position for a long time. In fact, I could do a far better job than you've done in this thread to make a scriptural case in favor of your position - and I don't even agree with it. IT is making his points in a far better way than you have - and there are parts of his arguments that I don't agree with either - but at least he knows how to make a cogent scriptural argument to support his position. Regardless of any potential merits of your position, if this thread is any judge, you don't.

Quote:
 
Dewey has asked me what happens to an infant when it dies, do I think it goes to hell. He fails to see that it is HIS beliefs that condemns babies to hell when they die, at least, the ones who don't manage to be fortunate enough to have good Catholic parents who remember to get the kid baptized before hand.


On the contrary, I believe, as I said earlier:

Quote:
 
"I have no doubt that an infant, or any child below the age of reason, is indeed saved without having repented of their sin."


And I can believe that specifically because I *do not* believe that salvation can only come after repentance for one's sins. That is exactly why I asked if *you* really believed that a person must repent of their sin before salvation is possible, as you had written. Thank you for now admitting that a person may attain salvation without having repented of his/her sin. It's good to know that we agree on this. You are gradually letting your theology of baptism eek out.

On the other hand, in your quote above, you're confusing the concepts of infant baptism with "children must be baptized in order to enter heaven if they die." I believe in infant baptism, and I do not believe it is merely a symbolic "christening" or similar thing. And yet I do not believe, as you seem to think I must believe since I believe in infant baptism, that an infant who dies needed to be baptized in order to get to heaven. I do not. And I believe this whether you're talking about a newborn infant, a toddler, someone who has never even heard the name of Jesus, someone who is mentally disabled, etc. - as well as a person who has professed faith in Christ, but who dies before having been baptized.

You're missing that key point when you want to argue against infant baptism. But let's continue...

Quote:
 
I beg to differ, as do the tens of thousands of people far more qualified than Dewey is or will ever be who have studied scripture and interpret these things the exact same way I do.


Of course, there are thousands of theologians who are vastly more knowledgeable than I am who agree with you Larry. Of course, there are thousands of others who agree with me, and who have been doing so for longer than your viewpoints came about in the church, and yet thousands more who agree with IT's position, and for even longer than either your or my positions were a part of the church. And all of them, regardless of which position they hold, are vastly more knowledgeable than you, or me, or IT.

But that doesn't have anything to do with this thread. IT made what should have been a relatively simple request of you - to show, using scripture, why the Roman Catholic position of infant baptism wasn't scriptural; and conversely, to show, using scripture, why your own view and no one else's, is the one correct way to see things. No need to get into how many theologians agree with whomever. No need to dive into side arguments. No need to get involved in personal slurs. Simply make the scriptural case for your arguments. Obviously, IT wouldn't agree with your conclusion, but that isn't even really the point. You needed to demonstrate that you a.)understood the actual Roman Catholic position that you were criticizing; and b.) that you could make a good scriptural argument for your own beliefs. You did neither. In fact, you've shown that you don't properly understand Roman Catholic doctrines relating to baptism, (same for Reformed/Presbyterian doctrine, but that's a side issue), and you've made only the weakest of argument for your own beliefs. As I said, I could have made a stronger scriptural case for your beliefs, and I don't even believe them.

But let's continue.

Quote:
 
Dewey sees it the way he sees it because he, sorry to say, wouldn't recognize a correct theological argument if it slapped him in the face.


I just wanted to quote that, in case that post of yours ever mysteriously "raptured" out of the thread.

:lol2:

Okay. NOW, let's continue.

Quote:
 
Ah, but the Catholic Church has a "fix" for that. A priest can turn stand over the corpse and sprinkle water on it and chant some Latin and everthing will be ok.


Do you really believe that's Roman Catholic doctrine? I can assure you that it is not.

As to the rest of that particular post, again, you're starting to tease out what you believe baptism is. You still aren't really offering scriptural witness to support your beliefs, but at least you're starting to share your theology of baptism. So if I may be so bold as to recap what you appear to believe about it - and correct me if I'm mistaken:

1. Baptism is a sign that a person has repented of his/her sins, and is professing faith in Jesus Christ.

2. Because of that, baptism is only appropriate for a person who is above the age of reason, and who is able to consciously make a decision to profess faith in Jesus Christ. A child of any age who is below the age of reason should not be baptized. If a parent wants to recognize the birth of their child, they may have a "christening" or similar service.

3. Children who are below the age of reason are under the protection of God's grace, and if they die, they will enter into God's kingdom, without having been baptized, since baptism is something only appropriate to people over the age of reason.

Are those three points correct? Would you change those statements? Would you add to them?

"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
A new religion, that'll bring you to your knees...

Black Velvet, if you please....."
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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In fact, I could do a far better job than you've done in this thread to make a scriptural case in favor of your position - and I don't even agree with it.


I'm sure you could, Dewey.

And in another year, the halo will be visible.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
And yet I do not believe, as you seem to think I must believe since I believe in infant baptism, that an infant who dies needed to be baptized in order to get to heaven. I do not.


Well, this hasn't been about what you believe, now has it? Its been about what the Roman Catholic Church teaches. So pardon me, but if you want to jump my ass about being wrong, stick with the program.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Moonbat
May 25 2011, 11:48 AM
Quote:
 

Regarding the winner of this debate, I must say it was pretty clear.


Moonbat winz again.

Edit: Wait I wasn't in this one. Damn.
Not only did you win, you've also been picked to play Hermione Granger. Congratulations!
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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John D'Oh
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Renauda
May 25 2011, 11:45 AM
I'll have to take your Word for it, John. I hope you have some good theology to support the casting.
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What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
Well, this hasn't been about what you believe, now has it?


No it hasn't, and yet you've made several comments assuming what I believe about it, so my beliefs seem to keep getting dragged in here by you, and so I have to occasionally make a comment about it. For the most part though, I've been pretty careful to not get into a statement of what I believe about baptism, specifically so you and IT would be free to discuss strictly your beliefs and that of the RCC.

So - Have I stated your theology of baptism correctly? Would you modify or add to it?
Edited by Dewey, May 25 2011, 12:04 PM.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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