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| If the rapture really happens tomorrow . . .; AKA . . . the Good Bye Thread | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 20 2011, 01:21 PM (12,110 Views) | |
| kenny | May 25 2011, 08:13 AM Post #551 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Nyuck Nyuck Nyuck. |
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| Larry | May 25 2011, 08:14 AM Post #552 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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What does God have to do with long winded pompous piety?.... |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Renauda | May 25 2011, 08:17 AM Post #553 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Don't start. Just stop.
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| sue | May 25 2011, 08:20 AM Post #554 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Go Canucks Go
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| Renauda | May 25 2011, 08:25 AM Post #555 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Indeed, I'm sure there's a |
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| Renauda | May 25 2011, 08:40 AM Post #556 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Yes, the Sedin sisters played immaculately last evening. |
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| ivorythumper | May 25 2011, 09:34 AM Post #557 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Larry, it seems you really can't even begin to understand another person's perspective if they don't agree with you.
I have not once defended the Catholic Church-- I have only laid out their rationale for believing as they do. I would have said the same had I been an atheist who wanted to give an accurate presentation of what the Catholic Church holds. And you, as typical, completely failed to answer anything about the "alternative Christianity" that was supposed to be the "real" Christianity in the first few centuries after Jesus. Regardless of what happened with the Orthodox -Catholic Schism, or at the Reformation, a reasonable person who have to give actual evidence for a conjecture about some other strand of Christian belief that was in contradistinction from the orthodox Catholic view. But you have NOTHING to show. Just your assertions. No. I worship God in the Trinity -- Father Son and Holy Spirit. I worship Jesus, God made man, who redeemed us and grants us eternal salvation, and give us his Holy Spirit to live lives in Christ. I firmly believe that Jesus did indeed found a Church -- one, holy, universal and apostolic Church. Through whatever sequences of historical events and historical contingencies, that Church has come to be known as the Catholic Church -- whether the Mar Thoma, Maronite, Melchite, Byzantine, Coptic, SyroMalabar or Roman variety - built on the Rock of Peter, and organized with the scriptural model of bishops (episcopoi), priests (presbyters) and deacons (diakonoi) to administrate the Sacraments by which the Christian is given the grace to be and live as a Christian, and to positively know the truths of the faith that Jesus entrusted to the apostles. Whenever you don't see your own thoughts reflected in someone else's words, you know they just don't get. Either they intellectually/ emotionally can't get it, or they refuse to and rather would just want to score cheap points. Which is it Larry? Are you incapable of understanding, or incapable of charity? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| The 89th Key | May 25 2011, 09:43 AM Post #558 |
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IT - in reading your post about baptism, I had a general question. I was baptized (by my father and his friend, who is now a pastor) when I was about 12, in a river (with a few family/friends on the bank watching) in a very humble and honest manner. 1) Does this count, in your opinion, based on scripture? 2) Would the Catholic church recognize this, if (hypothetically ) I were to join a Catholic church?I'm comfortable knowing that I was baptized, but just curious on your perspective/knowledge. |
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| ivorythumper | May 25 2011, 09:45 AM Post #559 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Ax: That's not a bad attempt from someone who is a nonbeliever to make sense of something they only abstractly understand by applying an analogy. But for the Christian it does completely miss the point, since it is ultimately and completely about relationship, not process or authority. The Christian message is that God is in a magnificent love relationship with humanity -- so much so that "Emmanuel" -- God dwells among us in the person of Jesus, who came that we all might have love, healing, forgiveness, strength to be better people, happiness and ultimately eternal life. That by baptism we are all made one in the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13) -- which again is a symbol of intimate relationship. Perhaps you can rework your analogy to include relationship and even how there is eternal supply of good beer and great sex in the afterlife. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | May 25 2011, 09:57 AM Post #560 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Any baptism is valid if administered in a Trinitarian form with the intent to be baptized. Eg., "I baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" All that is required is the willingness of the person to be baptized, and to use real water -- this is not required that a priest or a deacon do it, any Christian can baptize someone else. Whether you join the Catholic Church, or only seek to marry a Catholic, the priest or deacon or whoever is helping you through the process might have you attest to the circumstances -- that is was a Trinitarian baptism with the intent of becoming a Christian. In the case of dubious things -- say someone was baptized a Mormon, which is not a Trinitarian Christian practice, then there is a "conditional baptism". There is also the case of some groups baptizing in other formulas such as 'I baptise you in the name of the Creator, and of the Redeemer, and of the Sanctifier', or 'I baptise you in the name of the Creator, and of the Liberator, and of the Sustainer'" or I baptize you in the name of Jesus" (since they don't recognize the Trinity) -- then again there would be a conditional baptism. But based on the Scriptures which teaches that there is only one baptism for the remission of sins, virtually any orthodox Trinitarian baptism would be considered completely valid. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Axtremus | May 25 2011, 10:01 AM Post #561 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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The immigration analogy I provided already includes relationship: that of sovereign (the state) and subject (the resident/citizen-to-be). Going through the process makes you one in the citizenry of the sovereign. |
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| ivorythumper | May 25 2011, 10:20 AM Post #562 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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That only partly addresses what baptism does. The Catholic practice of baptism is not primarily about saving people from hell (though it does do that in faithfulness to John 3) or cleansing them of sins (though it does do that in faithfulness to Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:21) or giving us new life (which it does in faithfulness to Romans 6:4) but rather incorporating people into the Body of Christ and "clothing ourselves in Christ" and receiving the Holy Spirit. This is being faithful to the words of 1 Cor 12;13 "For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body--whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink." And faithful to the words of Gal 3:27 "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." And faithful to the words of Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." You see, Larry, the Catholic Church teaches ALL of the bible and the theology of baptism takes into account EVERYTHING that Scripture says about baptism. Your theology is partial and incomplete and does not address how the baby is incorporated into the Body of Christ or how the infant is "clothed with Christ" or how the new born "receives the Holy Spirit". Unless of course you think that the child should not be incorporated into the Body of Christ, or be clothed with Christ, or receive the Holy Spirit -- in which case you would be one of those people Jesus was talking about in hindering the little children from coming to Him (Matthew 19:14). Are you one of those people? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | May 25 2011, 10:21 AM Post #563 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Love relationship, Ax. You need to work on the love angle.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| JBryan | May 25 2011, 10:26 AM Post #564 |
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I am the grey one
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Going through the process makes you one in the citizenry of the sovereign and registering you a Democrat. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Axtremus | May 25 2011, 10:30 AM Post #565 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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"Love" would be extraneous to the analogy, for it requires neither authority nor process. |
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| Renauda | May 25 2011, 10:32 AM Post #566 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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At this point the criticism is not personal.
Now in the next sentence it's downright judgemental and right at the person. |
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| John D'Oh | May 25 2011, 10:33 AM Post #567 |
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MAMIL
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You doin' it wrong. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| ivorythumper | May 25 2011, 10:36 AM Post #568 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Yes, which is earlier why I said that the analogy really does not address the core of the Christian experience. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Axtremus | May 25 2011, 10:43 AM Post #569 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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To that, I'd simply state that the Christians misappropriated the term "love." |
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| Kincaid | May 25 2011, 10:45 AM Post #570 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Yes, that is why I felt I needed to be baptized again in my 40's. Mormons baptize using the words "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" but they do not recognize the triune nature of God. Mormons believe you should be baptized after you are 8 years old - they believe that prior to that "age of accountability" you aren't held responsible for sinful acts. (Not sure if your sins prior to that age just waft away or if your parents get stuck with them!). |
| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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| ivorythumper | May 25 2011, 10:46 AM Post #571 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Define love to show how the Christians have misappropriated it. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Horace | May 25 2011, 10:47 AM Post #572 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I never feel like more of an alien than when I see normal intelligent people arguing about a book of magic spells that will make them immortal. |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
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| ivorythumper | May 25 2011, 10:49 AM Post #573 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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So would I if I ever witnessed such a thing.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Renauda | May 25 2011, 10:50 AM Post #574 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Hey weren't you one of those in the openning scene of Macbeth? |
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| John D'Oh | May 25 2011, 10:54 AM Post #575 |
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MAMIL
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I just wish Jesus had produced a marauders map like they gave to Harry Potter - then we could figure out who were the real Christians, who are the followers of the Dark Lord, and more importantly, which of us is the House Elf. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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) I were to join a Catholic church?


11:27 AM Jul 11