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If the rapture really happens tomorrow . . .; AKA . . . the Good Bye Thread
Topic Started: May 20 2011, 01:21 PM (12,110 Views)
kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Nyuck Nyuck Nyuck.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
kenny
May 25 2011, 08:12 AM
Larry
May 25 2011, 08:11 AM
No, I'm fairly certain that it won't be long until we will get to wade through another long winded pompous bit of piety about why it's not that simple because the Roman Catholic Church didn't come up with the idea...
So, God didn't win?
What does God have to do with long winded pompous piety?....
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
kenny
May 25 2011, 08:11 AM
Did I just quote John Lennon?
What's formalist?
Is formalism bad?
Don't start.

Just stop.

:lol2:
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
Renauda
May 25 2011, 08:06 AM
In overtime no less.
Go Canucks Go :whome:
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
May 25 2011, 08:11 AM
No, I'm fairly certain that it won't be long until we will get to wade through another long winded pompous bit of piety about why it's not that simple because the Roman Catholic Church didn't come up with the idea...
Indeed, I'm sure there's a sacrament app for that.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
sue
May 25 2011, 08:20 AM
Renauda
May 25 2011, 08:06 AM
In overtime no less.
Go Canucks Go :whome:
Yes, the Sedin sisters played immaculately last evening.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Larry, it seems you really can't even begin to understand another person's perspective if they don't agree with you.

Quote:
 
Anyone reading this thread all the way through should be able to see that the ONLY concern IT seems to have had throughout the entire discussion is defending the Roman Catholic Church. His last post pretty much proves that, as he continues to make the claim that the Roman Catholic church is responsible for everything that has ever happened in the Christian religion, to the point that I've almost expected to see him tell me the pope can fly and appear and disappear through solid walls.


I have not once defended the Catholic Church-- I have only laid out their rationale for believing as they do. I would have said the same had I been an atheist who wanted to give an accurate presentation of what the Catholic Church holds.

And you, as typical, completely failed to answer anything about the "alternative Christianity" that was supposed to be the "real" Christianity in the first few centuries after Jesus. Regardless of what happened with the Orthodox -Catholic Schism, or at the Reformation, a reasonable person who have to give actual evidence for a conjecture about some other strand of Christian belief that was in contradistinction from the orthodox Catholic view. But you have NOTHING to show. Just your assertions.

Quote:
 

IT worships a religion. He worships his religion with such conviction that he finds it incredible that I would even suggest that Jews had anything to do with Christianity. He seems to be of the opinion that Christianity began in Rome. Dewey worships a religion. I do not worship a religion. There are millions of good, committed Christians in the Catholic Church. But it's not because they are in the Catholic Church.

No. I worship God in the Trinity -- Father Son and Holy Spirit. I worship Jesus, God made man, who redeemed us and grants us eternal salvation, and give us his Holy Spirit to live lives in Christ.

I firmly believe that Jesus did indeed found a Church -- one, holy, universal and apostolic Church. Through whatever sequences of historical events and historical contingencies, that Church has come to be known as the Catholic Church -- whether the Mar Thoma, Maronite, Melchite, Byzantine, Coptic, SyroMalabar or Roman variety - built on the Rock of Peter, and organized with the scriptural model of bishops (episcopoi), priests (presbyters) and deacons (diakonoi) to administrate the Sacraments by which the Christian is given the grace to be and live as a Christian, and to positively know the truths of the faith that Jesus entrusted to the apostles.

Whenever you don't see your own thoughts reflected in someone else's words, you know they just don't get. Either they intellectually/ emotionally can't get it, or they refuse to and rather would just want to score cheap points. Which is it Larry? Are you incapable of understanding, or incapable of charity?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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The 89th Key
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ivorythumper
May 24 2011, 11:46 AM
Well, I guess I have to start first since Larry does not seem able to even begin. Using only Scripture, the Catholic Church teaches

Baptism is necessary for salvation : Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. (John 3)

Baptism cleanses us of our sins "Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name " (Acts 22:16)

Because only God can forgive sins : "Who can forgive sins but God alone? " (Mark 2:7) baptism must be an action of God, it is Jesus who forgives sins in baptism.

Baptism is an actual forgiveness of sins, and imparts in us the Holy Spirit. This is applicable to both us and our children,the Greek word teknois including infants: "Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call.' (Act 2:38).

Teknon is used for infants -- it comes from the GK "tekein" "to be brought forth -- as in birth (See Luke 1:57). In Acts 21:21 the children circumcised on the 8th day under the Mosaic law are described as "tekna".

Baptism is a regeneration of the person in Christ by participating in his death and resurrection:
Quote:
 
"Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin---because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. "


Through baptism, Christ makes us Christians and we become children of God and heirs of the Covenant: "So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:26-29)

Jesus said "do not hinder the little ones from coming to me. (Matt 19:14, Luke 18:15, Mark 10:13) In these passages we see the women bring "babies" (brephe) to Jesus for him to touch. The word Jesus uses is in Greek paidia -- little boys and girls -- which is the same word "paidion" that Luke uses to call John when he was circumcised as an infant (Luke 1:59) So "paidia" also clearly includes babies -- the "brephe" that the women carried "prosepheron" to Jesus.

So that is the general outline of the Church's scriptural position on infant baptism -- the Jesus calls all to him regardless of age, and he wants all to be washed from sin and incorporated into the Body of Christ.

Now it's your turn to argue from scripture why the Catholic Church is wrong.
IT - in reading your post about baptism, I had a general question. I was baptized (by my father and his friend, who is now a pastor) when I was about 12, in a river (with a few family/friends on the bank watching) in a very humble and honest manner.

1) Does this count, in your opinion, based on scripture?
2) Would the Catholic church recognize this, if (hypothetically :biggrin: ) I were to join a Catholic church?

I'm comfortable knowing that I was baptized, but just curious on your perspective/knowledge.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Axtremus
May 25 2011, 04:23 AM
Sounds like you guys were arguing "authority" v. "process."

"Authority" comes from one source: E.g., [1] immigration "amnesty" through Congress passing an Act, [2] Christian spiritual "pardoning of sins" through Jesus dying on a cross.

"Process" is just going through the steps and demonstrating that you satisfy the requirements: E.g., [1] filling out immigration forms in triplicates and showing proof of entry before 1982 and proof of continued residence since, [2] professing acceptance of Jesus as savior and dunked in water.
Ax: That's not a bad attempt from someone who is a nonbeliever to make sense of something they only abstractly understand by applying an analogy. But for the Christian it does completely miss the point, since it is ultimately and completely about relationship, not process or authority.

The Christian message is that God is in a magnificent love relationship with humanity -- so much so that "Emmanuel" -- God dwells among us in the person of Jesus, who came that we all might have love, healing, forgiveness, strength to be better people, happiness and ultimately eternal life. That by baptism we are all made one in the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13) -- which again is a symbol of intimate relationship.

Perhaps you can rework your analogy to include relationship and even how there is eternal supply of good beer and great sex in the afterlife.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
The 89th Key
May 25 2011, 09:43 AM
IT - in reading your post about baptism, I had a general question. I was baptized (by my father and his friend, who is now a pastor) when I was about 12, in a river (with a few family/friends on the bank watching) in a very humble and honest manner.

1) Does this count, in your opinion, based on scripture?
2) Would the Catholic church recognize this, if (hypothetically :biggrin: ) I were to join a Catholic church?

I'm comfortable knowing that I was baptized, but just curious on your perspective/knowledge.
Any baptism is valid if administered in a Trinitarian form with the intent to be baptized.

Eg., "I baptize you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit"

All that is required is the willingness of the person to be baptized, and to use real water -- this is not required that a priest or a deacon do it, any Christian can baptize someone else.

Whether you join the Catholic Church, or only seek to marry a Catholic, the priest or deacon or whoever is helping you through the process might have you attest to the circumstances -- that is was a Trinitarian baptism with the intent of becoming a Christian.

In the case of dubious things -- say someone was baptized a Mormon, which is not a Trinitarian Christian practice, then there is a "conditional baptism". There is also the case of some groups baptizing in other formulas such as 'I baptise you in the name of the Creator, and of the Redeemer, and of the Sanctifier', or 'I baptise you in the name of the Creator, and of the Liberator, and of the Sustainer'" or I baptize you in the name of Jesus" (since they don't recognize the Trinity) -- then again there would be a conditional baptism.

But based on the Scriptures which teaches that there is only one baptism for the remission of sins, virtually any orthodox Trinitarian baptism would be considered completely valid.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
The immigration analogy I provided already includes relationship: that of sovereign (the state) and subject (the resident/citizen-to-be). Going through the process makes you one in the citizenry of the sovereign.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Larry
May 25 2011, 06:46 AM

Ah, but the Catholic Church has a "fix" for that. A priest can turn stand over the corpse and sprinkle water on it and chant some Latin and everthing will be ok. Never mind that that is not scriptural. Separate "original sin" from a person actually knowing what he's doing, and sinning. An infant has not sinned. An infant is not responsible for wiping his own butt, fixing his own meals, or making weighty decisions. An infant is an infant. If there is a God, and if there is an afterlife, it all hinges on Jesus being who he said he was - NOT the Roman Catholic Church. Going with the assumption that Jesus was who he said he was, then if you want to know what happens to babies when they die, pay attention to what scripture has to say on the matter, not what a religion has to say on the matter.

There is no scripture that says an infant goes to heaven when it dies. There is no scripture that says an infant does NOT go to heaven when it dies. That doesn't mean scripture is silent on the issue. Scripture says that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for EVERYONE, and that it is the UNBELIEVER who will not go to heaven. How can a baby be an unbeliever? It can't. How can a man born and raised in the deepest most remote areas of the rain forest, a man who has never seen another human being outside his little clan, be an unbeliever? How could all the people who lived and died in oh.... China before the year 0 be unbelievers? None of them had even heard of Jesus Christ, or Moses, or Judaism, or Christianity - to "unbelieve" in. What happens to them? Little babies cannot be "unbelievers" - so it is not necessary for the CHURCH to do a thing for them, any more than it is necessary for the Church to do anything for those people who lived and died without ever having heard what it is they are to believe in. You are condemned by the active decision to NOT BELIEVE. A baby cannot actively make that decision.

So if you want to get your kid baptized, fine. Nothing wrong with it. It's a nice little ceremony that can bring you some good "Kodak moments". But baptizing someone who is not capable of actively choosing to not believe in the belief that this is going to save its soul is not only not scriptural, it's ridiculous. I have a cousin who is severely mentally handicapped. If you ask him if he "believes in Jesus", he just grins. He has no idea what you mean. He thinks you're talking about Santa Claus. If you follow the IT and Dewey's logic, my cousin is going to die and go to hell. Sorry, but that's not scriptural. My cousin is not mentally capable of deciding whether he believes in the saving grace of Jesus Christ's death on the cross. He is not capable of even grasping the concept of it. When he dies, he will die never having made an active decision to NOT BELIEVE, and if anyone is in heaven, it will be him.

That only partly addresses what baptism does.

The Catholic practice of baptism is not primarily about saving people from hell (though it does do that in faithfulness to John 3) or cleansing them of sins (though it does do that in faithfulness to Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:21) or giving us new life (which it does in faithfulness to Romans 6:4) but rather incorporating people into the Body of Christ and "clothing ourselves in Christ" and receiving the Holy Spirit.

This is being faithful to the words of 1 Cor 12;13 "For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body--whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

And faithful to the words of Gal 3:27 "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."

And faithful to the words of Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

You see, Larry, the Catholic Church teaches ALL of the bible and the theology of baptism takes into account EVERYTHING that Scripture says about baptism. Your theology is partial and incomplete and does not address how the baby is incorporated into the Body of Christ or how the infant is "clothed with Christ" or how the new born "receives the Holy Spirit".

Unless of course you think that the child should not be incorporated into the Body of Christ, or be clothed with Christ, or receive the Holy Spirit -- in which case you would be one of those people Jesus was talking about in hindering the little children from coming to Him (Matthew 19:14).

Are you one of those people?

The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Axtremus
May 25 2011, 10:01 AM
The immigration analogy I provided already includes relationship: that of sovereign (the state) and subject (the resident/citizen-to-be). Going through the process makes you one in the citizenry of the sovereign.
Love relationship, Ax. You need to work on the love angle. :thumb:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
ivorythumper
May 25 2011, 10:21 AM
Axtremus
May 25 2011, 10:01 AM
The immigration analogy I provided already includes relationship: that of sovereign (the state) and subject (the resident/citizen-to-be). Going through the process makes you one in the citizenry of the sovereign.
Love relationship, Ax. You need to work on the love angle. :thumb:
Going through the process makes you one in the citizenry of the sovereign and registering you a Democrat.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
"Love" would be extraneous to the analogy, for it requires neither authority nor process.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
May 25 2011, 10:20 AM
Your theology is partial and incomplete and does not address how the baby is incorporated into the Body of Christ or how the infant is "clothed with Christ" or how the new born "receives the Holy Spirit".


At this point the criticism is not personal.

Quote:
 
Unless of course you think that the child should not be incorporated into the Body of Christ, or be clothed with Christ, or receive the Holy Spirit -- in which case you would be one of those people Jesus was talking about in hindering the little children from coming to Him (Matthew 19:14).

Are you one of those people?


Now in the next sentence it's downright judgemental and right at the person.


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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Axtremus
May 25 2011, 10:30 AM
"Love" would be extraneous to the analogy, for it requires neither authority nor process.
You doin' it wrong.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Axtremus
May 25 2011, 10:30 AM
"Love" would be extraneous to the analogy, for it requires neither authority nor process.
Yes, which is earlier why I said that the analogy really does not address the core of the Christian experience.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
May 25 2011, 10:36 AM
Axtremus
May 25 2011, 10:30 AM
"Love" would be extraneous to the analogy, for it requires neither authority nor process.
Yes, which is earlier why I said that the analogy really does not address the core of the Christian experience.
To that, I'd simply state that the Christians misappropriated the term "love."
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
May 25 2011, 09:57 AM
In the case of dubious things -- say someone was baptized a Mormon, which is not a Trinitarian Christian practice, then there is a "conditional baptism". There is also the case of some groups baptizing in other formulas such as 'I baptise you in the name of the Creator, and of the Redeemer, and of the Sanctifier', or 'I baptise you in the name of the Creator, and of the Liberator, and of the Sustainer'" or I baptize you in the name of Jesus" (since they don't recognize the Trinity) -- then again there would be a conditional baptism.
Yes, that is why I felt I needed to be baptized again in my 40's. Mormons baptize using the words "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" but they do not recognize the triune nature of God. Mormons believe you should be baptized after you are 8 years old - they believe that prior to that "age of accountability" you aren't held responsible for sinful acts. (Not sure if your sins prior to that age just waft away or if your parents get stuck with them!).
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Axtremus
May 25 2011, 10:43 AM
ivorythumper
May 25 2011, 10:36 AM
Axtremus
May 25 2011, 10:30 AM
"Love" would be extraneous to the analogy, for it requires neither authority nor process.
Yes, which is earlier why I said that the analogy really does not address the core of the Christian experience.
To that, I'd simply state that the Christians misappropriated the term "love."
Define love to show how the Christians have misappropriated it.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
I never feel like more of an alien than when I see normal intelligent people arguing about a book of magic spells that will make them immortal.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Horace
May 25 2011, 10:47 AM
I never feel like more of an alien than when I see normal intelligent people arguing about a book of magic spells that will make them immortal.
So would I if I ever witnessed such a thing. :lol2:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Horace
 
I never feel like more of an alien than when I see normal intelligent people arguing about a book of magic spells that will make them immortal.


Hey weren't you one of those in the openning scene of Macbeth?
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Horace
May 25 2011, 10:47 AM
I never feel like more of an alien than when I see normal intelligent people arguing about a book of magic spells that will make them immortal.
I just wish Jesus had produced a marauders map like they gave to Harry Potter - then we could figure out who were the real Christians, who are the followers of the Dark Lord, and more importantly, which of us is the House Elf.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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