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| If the rapture really happens tomorrow . . .; AKA . . . the Good Bye Thread | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 20 2011, 01:21 PM (12,113 Views) | |
| ivorythumper | May 24 2011, 08:20 PM Post #476 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I agree with the Catholic teaching that through the waters of baptism Jesus forgives our sins, incorporates us into the Body of Christ, imparts the Holy Spirit, frees us from sin and by which we are reborn as sons and daughters of God. Both babies and adults. All of it scriptural. Go for it. I've already laid out the scriptural understanding for the Catholic position-- I am still waiting for you to lay out your position from scripture why this is wrong. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Larry | May 24 2011, 08:23 PM Post #477 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Now let's address this verse of scripture, taken totally out of context. Read it in context: 1)There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2)This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." 3)Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4)Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5)Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6)That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7)Do not marvel that I said to you, "You must be born again.' 8)The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." It is quite obvious that JEsus was not referring to baptism at all, but was referring to being "born" again. First a physical birth (water) then a spiritual birth (salvation). And don't start telling me how I don't know what I'm talking about. I am in the company of literally thousands of theologians who will tell you the same thing regarding that passage of scripture. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | May 24 2011, 08:24 PM Post #478 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I can afford to let him get away with that tactic. I have every reason to doubt that he can argue from scripture against what the apostolic faith teaches and what the Catholic Church has held for 2000 years. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Larry | May 24 2011, 08:24 PM Post #479 |
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I have just finished showing you why it is not. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Larry | May 24 2011, 08:27 PM Post #480 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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The muslims have taught the same things for nearly that long, and they're incorrect also. Repeating an error for 2,000 years does not make the error become right. There is nothing scriptural to support the belief that baptism saves your soul. Yours, or a baby's. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | May 24 2011, 08:33 PM Post #481 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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And your repeating an error for 400 years or 4 minutes doesn't make it right either. Which is just to say, you are not really saying anything meaningful to the discussion. You keep missing the point that Jesus saves us. The Catholic teaching is that Jesus saved us generally through his passion, death and resurrection, and he saves us personally and individually as well as corporately through the waters of baptism -- that is what Paul talks about when he aligns our baptism to the participation in the death and resurrection of Jesus. I already laid out that for you above (Romans 6). Now argue against that from Scripture. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | May 24 2011, 08:35 PM Post #482 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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No you did not. You made a claim "It is quite obvious that JEsus was not referring to baptism at all, but was referring to being "born" again. First a physical birth (water) then a spiritual birth (salvation). " You need to show from Scripture that this is wrong. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Larry | May 24 2011, 08:58 PM Post #483 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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No, I didn't miss that point at all. That IS my point. The Roman Catholic point is quite clear - baptism saves you.
Oh, I've said quite a lot that is meaningful to the discussion. You just don't like hearing it.
Well, which is it - what you claimed just then, or the Church catechism which says that baptism saves you, and the Roman Catholic Church knows no other way for you to gain eternal life? Take your pick, you can't have both. As for Romans 6, Paul makes it quite plain in verse 19 that he is using examples from everyday life to help them understand the meaning of what he is telling them. Do you believe that Paul was teaching them they would literally be slaves? Do you really believe that Paul was telling them they all literally died when Jesus did? No. Scripture must be interpreted in light of other scripture, and the meaning taken from it must be consistent with other scripture. To take what Paul said in Romans 6 and claim that he is saying baptism saves your soul is not only not consistent with other scripture, it is ridiculous. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Larry | May 24 2011, 08:59 PM Post #484 |
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I already did. It's not my problem if you can't read scripture in context. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | May 24 2011, 09:13 PM Post #485 |
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Here's from Scripture why "water and the spirit" in John can be said to signify baptism. Water and the spirit are first encountered in Genesis 1:2 "the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. " Here we see the symbolic grounding for baptism. The earth was a formless void as the soul without Christ is by parallel, in a state of chaos. Water and the spirit are connected again in Isaiah 44:3 "For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants." Here we see that water and the spirit both are signs of new life, replenishing, refreshment, and renewal. John tells us that his is a baptism of water, but in Christ we will be baptised with the Holy Spirit "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." (Matt 3) The when Jesus is baptized in water the Holy Spirit descends upon him "As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him." You jump to a conclusion that Jesus is not talking about baptism when he speaks of "water and the spirit" and insist that "It is quite obvious that Jesus was not referring to baptism at all, but was referring to being "born" again. First a physical birth (water) then a spiritual birth (salvation)." -- yet Scripture already laid out the symbol structure for understanding Jesus' word in respect of baptism. And this understanding is then continued in the book of Acts where baptism occurs: Peter's proclamation in Acts 2 :"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Water and the spirit. Paul's conversion in Act 9: " Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, and after taking some food, he regained his strength." Water and the spirit. The baptism of Cornelius in Acts 10: "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, "Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days." Water and the spirit. In 1 John 5 we see the complete harmony between the Spirit, the water of Baptism, and the Blood of Jesus: "This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." Water and the spirit. In Rev 22, we again see the relationship between the water and the Spirit: "The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life." Water and the spirit. This is why it is much more reasonable to take Jesus' words about "water and the spirit" in the context of baptism than speaking of natural birth -- it is true that we are "born in water" in natural birth -- this adds to the baptismal signification. If we were not born in water naturally, then there would be no basis for a spiritual amplification of this. Now argue against that from Scripture. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | May 24 2011, 09:19 PM Post #486 |
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Larry, you are not even following your own rules. You have to give an actual scriptural argument against something or posit something from Scripture. You are just making a personal attack in saying that I can't read scripture in context. If that is all you have to offer, I am deeply disappointed. I thought you were actually able to make a real argument, rather than just say "I'm right and if you don't agree then you're wrong." |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | May 24 2011, 09:29 PM Post #487 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Larry, the Catholic position is that we are saved by Jesus. That is unassailable. Since you already accept the Catholic Catechism as authoritive for making the Catholic position understood: "169 Salvation comes from God alone; 1741 Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free." In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free." The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God." 1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. 620 Our salvation flows from God's initiative of love for us, because "he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins" (1 Jn 4:10). "God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (2 Cor 5:19). 183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk 16:16). 621 Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: "This is my body which is given for you" (Lk 22:19). 1584 Since it is ultimately Christ who acts and effects salvation through the ordained minister, the unworthiness of the latter does not prevent Christ from acting. 161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. etc. I don't see how it could be more clear that you are wrong in understanding what the Church actually teaches about salvation. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | May 24 2011, 09:33 PM Post #488 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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once again, as demonstrated by all the quotes from the Catechism, the constant Catholic teaching is that Jesus saves us, and that he uses the waters of baptism. "Baptism" apart from Jesus means nothing, it is just getting wet. "Baptism" apart from Christ cannot do anything. If THAT is your concern about what the Catholic Church teaches, then you can rest assured that you have been under a mistaken understanding. I am glad to have been able to clear that up for you. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Larry | May 24 2011, 09:42 PM Post #489 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Why are you trying to make metaphorical connections where none exist? Genesis says the spirit of God was hovering over the waters because.... the spirit of God was hovering over the waters. There's no reference to baptism there.... good grief.
You seem to be of the opinion that that verse justifies the Catholic belief that baptism saves your soul. How odd. Oh crap, I don't have the time or the patience to deal with each one of them, it's enough to say that not one of those verses have a damned thing to do with what Paul was telling the church in Rome. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | May 24 2011, 09:44 PM Post #490 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Larry, your job here is to offer biblical texts that show that the Catholic Church is wrong about infant baptism, not to argue with the way the Church interprets the Bible. I am still waiting for you to do that. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Larry | May 24 2011, 09:45 PM Post #491 |
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Then your "church fathers" aren't as divinely inspired as you think, since you have now shown that they say one thing one time, and something else at another time. Or, we can remove the misdirection you're trying to confuse the issue with, and state it straight out - according to Roman Catholic teaching, Jesus saves you - through the act of baptism. Not scriptural. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | May 24 2011, 09:47 PM Post #492 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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You need to offer a scriptural text for your position -- not simply assert that the Catholic Church is wrong. I am still waiting for you to do that. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Larry | May 24 2011, 09:47 PM Post #493 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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If you spent more time reading what I wrote and less time thinking about your next strategy, you'd know that that's not what I did at all. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | May 24 2011, 09:49 PM Post #494 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I have read everything you wrote. You still have not made a scriptural argument against what the Catholic Church teaches based in scripture. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Larry | May 24 2011, 09:51 PM Post #495 |
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So.... you think that I should be able to find a verse of scripture that was written for the purpose of showing that you misinterpreted another verse.... Showing that your church has misinterpreted scripture DOES show that your church is wrong about infant baptism (as taught by the Roman Catholic Church). For the life of me, I can't figure out why you can't understand that. |
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| Larry | May 24 2011, 09:56 PM Post #496 |
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Yes I have. I should have known not to try to have a discussion with you. I've always avoided discussing religion when you're involved in it, because you come out of the gate with your thin skin and immediately start the same kind of crap you started here in this thread. I have shown you precisely why the Roman Catholic teaching regarding infant baptism saving the baby's soul is not scriptural. I have shown several other things as well, but there's no getting anything through to you. You are not able to discuss religion objectively, for you seem to be hyper sensitive to even the slightest hint that the Roman Catholic church might actually be wrong about something. Got news for you, guy - all of them are wrong about something. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Larry | May 24 2011, 09:57 PM Post #497 |
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And with that, I'm through trying to discuss religion with you, because you can't do it. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | May 24 2011, 09:57 PM Post #498 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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No Larry, it will suffice to make a scriptural argument that shows that the Church is wrong, while respecting EVERYTHING that Scripture has to say about baptism. You prooftexted one verse (Repent and believe) as if that were the full story. But it is clearly not. Infants were baptized in the early Church along with their parents-- I have already given you the scriptures that argue to that. So dismantle those arguments if you think you can, but it is insufficient to take one part of scripture and claim that it does not need to be understood in respect to everything else said about that topic in the bible. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | May 24 2011, 09:59 PM Post #499 |
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My thin skin. That's pretty funny Larry. You've blown several gaskets here already. And you have not answered the multiple scriptures that I have given you that argue for the validity of the Catholic Church's view on the matter. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | May 24 2011, 10:04 PM Post #500 |
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oh well. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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