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If the rapture really happens tomorrow . . .; AKA . . . the Good Bye Thread
Topic Started: May 20 2011, 01:21 PM (12,115 Views)
Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Walking on the street, a proselytizer handed me a brochure titled: "The Romans' Road to Heaven."

It quotes Roman 3:23, 3:10, 6:23, 5:8, 10:9-10, 10:13.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Presumably, being Roman, it's a very straight road, and people drive on the left, as God and nature intended.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
So does that mean there are civil engineers involved?
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
May 24 2011, 11:38 AM
Presumably, being Roman, it's a very straight road
bumpy, though.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Axtremus
May 24 2011, 11:36 AM
Walking on the street, a proselytizer handed me a brochure titled: "The Romans' Road to Heaven."

It quotes Roman 3:23, 3:10, 6:23, 5:8, 10:9-10, 10:13.
I hope you were polite and said "Thank you and have a nice day".
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I'd post the 'beating a dead horse' smiley, but everyone seems to be enjoying themselves.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Well, I guess I have to start first since Larry does not seem able to even begin. Using only Scripture, the Catholic Church teaches

Baptism is necessary for salvation : Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. (John 3)

Baptism cleanses us of our sins "Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name " (Acts 22:16)

Because only God can forgive sins : "Who can forgive sins but God alone? " (Mark 2:7) baptism must be an action of God, it is Jesus who forgives sins in baptism.

Baptism is an actual forgiveness of sins, and imparts in us the Holy Spirit. This is applicable to both us and our children,the Greek word teknois including infants: "Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call.' (Act 2:38).

Teknon is used for infants -- it comes from the GK "tekein" "to be brought forth -- as in birth (See Luke 1:57). In Acts 21:21 the children circumcised on the 8th day under the Mosaic law are described as "tekna".

Baptism is a regeneration of the person in Christ by participating in his death and resurrection:
Quote:
 
"Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin---because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. "


Through baptism, Christ makes us Christians and we become children of God and heirs of the Covenant: "So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:26-29)

Jesus said "do not hinder the little ones from coming to me. (Matt 19:14, Luke 18:15, Mark 10:13) In these passages we see the women bring "babies" (brephe) to Jesus for him to touch. The word Jesus uses is in Greek paidia -- little boys and girls -- which is the same word "paidion" that Luke uses to call John when he was circumcised as an infant (Luke 1:59) So "paidia" also clearly includes babies -- the "brephe" that the women carried "prosepheron" to Jesus.

So that is the general outline of the Church's scriptural position on infant baptism -- the Jesus calls all to him regardless of age, and he wants all to be washed from sin and incorporated into the Body of Christ.

Now it's your turn to argue from scripture why the Catholic Church is wrong.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
May 24 2011, 11:46 AM
I'd post the 'beating a dead horse' smiley, but everyone seems to be enjoying themselves.
I am glad the snot bit is finished though. I don't gross out easily, but that was starting to do the trick.

or was that the other thread? :whome:
Edited by sue, May 24 2011, 11:50 AM.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
sue
May 24 2011, 11:50 AM
Mikhailoh
May 24 2011, 11:46 AM
I'd post the 'beating a dead horse' smiley, but everyone seems to be enjoying themselves.
I am glad the snot bit is finished though. I don't gross out easily, but that was starting to do the trick.

or was that the other thread? :whome:
Take your pick.


Just don't let anyone see you.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
May 24 2011, 11:46 AM
I'd post the 'beating a dead horse' smiley, but everyone seems to be enjoying themselves.
For this thread I think a "beating a dead goat" may be more appropriate
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Renauda
May 24 2011, 11:45 AM
Axtremus
May 24 2011, 11:36 AM
Walking on the street, a proselytizer handed me a brochure titled: "The Romans' Road to Heaven."

It quotes Roman 3:23, 3:10, 6:23, 5:8, 10:9-10, 10:13.
I hope you were polite and said "Thank you and have a nice day".
Whom do you take me for? Aqua? :lol2:

As a matter of fact, I did thank her politely, for at the time I thought she was giving me discount coupon for a local Subway sandwich shop.
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
You should have asked her out.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
George K
May 21 2011, 07:00 AM
dolmansaxlil
May 21 2011, 06:54 AM
George, obviously you don't know me very well, because there is no way I would ever be taken in a group of the godly. This hand basket is exceptionally roomy if anyone would like to join me...
That's not me in that post: http://s10.zetaboards.com/The_New_Coffee_Room/single/?p=8789958&t=7339667

That's Kenny.

See? http://s10.zetaboards.com/The_New_Coffee_Room/single/?p=8790278&t=7339694
http://s10.zetaboards.com/The_New_Coffee_Room/topic/7236702/1/#new
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
The question regarding Baptism comes down to several essential questions.

1) Is Baptism a necessary component for salvation. This is a biggee. As already noted in the thread there are passages in the Bible that definitely would seem to indicate that it is. First Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, and others. However there are other contradictory passages that indicate salvation is accomplished strictly and only through faith. Or Justification by Faith in Jesus and His sacrifice. Romans chapter 5 really lays out the case as well as Romans 3:28 seems to indicate to me that no works or law can save a man (or woman, or child). I also think of the thief at the cross, that was promised salvation without any baptism. He was justified by his faith in Christ. This would seem to me to be pretty good evidence that baptism isn't necessary for salvation, but (similar to works) the strong desire to be baptized as soon as possible is the result of true faith, and becomes representative.

2) Are infants saved through Baptism? The Justification by Faith argument would seem to say no, as there is no faith at that point. This opens up the whole age of reason argument which I'm not ready to get into except point out that the Catholic Church does make allowances for those that have never had the opportunity to learn about Christ, that even they may be saved. It would seem to me that would apply over to children as well.

More to come later:
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Luke's Dad
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Emperor Pengin
Sorry IT, I started putting the above together well before you posted yours. Just got interrupted many times. I'll read yours and we'll compare.
The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
sue
May 24 2011, 11:40 AM
John D'Oh
May 24 2011, 11:38 AM
Presumably, being Roman, it's a very straight road
bumpy, though.
Unlike the road to the other place, which is paved.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
More damned civil engineers.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
:rimshot:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Renauda
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HOLY CARP!!!
Well at least it isn't littered with architects.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Renauda
May 24 2011, 12:23 PM
More damned civil engineers.
:lol2: :lol2: :lol2:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Renauda
May 24 2011, 12:23 PM
More damned civil engineers.
:lol2: :lol2: :lol2:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Luke's Dad
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ivorythumper
May 24 2011, 11:46 AM
Well, I guess I have to start first since Larry does not seem able to even begin. Using only Scripture, the Catholic Church teaches

Baptism is necessary for salvation : Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. (John 3)

Baptism cleanses us of our sins "Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name " (Acts 22:16)

Because only God can forgive sins : "Who can forgive sins but God alone? " (Mark 2:7) baptism must be an action of God, it is Jesus who forgives sins in baptism.

Baptism is an actual forgiveness of sins, and imparts in us the Holy Spirit. This is applicable to both us and our children,the Greek word teknois including infants: "Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call.' (Act 2:38).

Teknon is used for infants -- it comes from the GK "tekein" "to be brought forth -- as in birth (See Luke 1:57). In Acts 21:21 the children circumcised on the 8th day under the Mosaic law are described as "tekna".

Baptism is a regeneration of the person in Christ by participating in his death and resurrection:
Quote:
 
"Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin---because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. "


Through baptism, Christ makes us Christians and we become children of God and heirs of the Covenant: "So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:26-29)

Jesus said "do not hinder the little ones from coming to me. (Matt 19:14, Luke 18:15, Mark 10:13) In these passages we see the women bring "babies" (brephe) to Jesus for him to touch. The word Jesus uses is in Greek paidia -- little boys and girls -- which is the same word "paidion" that Luke uses to call John when he was circumcised as an infant (Luke 1:59) So "paidia" also clearly includes babies -- the "brephe" that the women carried "prosepheron" to Jesus.

So that is the general outline of the Church's scriptural position on infant baptism -- the Jesus calls all to him regardless of age, and he wants all to be washed from sin and incorporated into the Body of Christ.

Now it's your turn to argue from scripture why the Catholic Church is wrong.
Ok, here we go.

Quote:
 
Baptism is necessary for salvation : Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. (John 3)


John 7:37-38 On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."

John 4:14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

These verses show Jesus using water as a metaphor for the knowledge and teachings that Jesus imparts to his followers. It also represents the faith and love in the Lord. Not a true physical water. John 3 seems to state the same thing to me.

Quote:
 
Baptism cleanses us of our sins "Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name " (Acts 22:16)
Because only God can forgive sins : "Who can forgive sins but God alone? " (Mark 2:7) baptism must be an action of God, it is Jesus who forgives sins in baptism.


If baptism and only baptism cleanses us of our sins, wouldn't baptism be necessary on a fairly regular basis? I mean, everybody sins, even after salvation. In Acts 3:19, Peter ties forgiveness to repentance and no mention of baptism.

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord."

More later.





The problem with having an open mind is that people keep trying to put things in it.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
okay. up to date now.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Nobody's Sock
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Fulla-Carp
If I were some alien visiting this place who knew nothing of Christianity , Jesus , or the Bible, I'd probably come away, after reading all these scriptures, thinking that this guy Jesus was the biggest con man ever to walk the earth, and that the Bible was a load of garbage with all its contradictions.



There, that aught to get this thread to 20 pages!
Edited by Nobody's Sock, May 24 2011, 01:52 PM.
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Nobody's Sock
May 24 2011, 01:51 PM
If I were some alien visiting this place who knew nothing of Christianity , Jesus , or the Bible,...
Sounds like another way of saying 'approached it objectively'
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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