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| If the rapture really happens tomorrow . . .; AKA . . . the Good Bye Thread | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 20 2011, 01:21 PM (12,122 Views) | |
| ivorythumper | May 23 2011, 01:58 PM Post #251 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Endorsed? Where did he FORBID it? Baptism is a sovereign act of God. It is God's action, not ours. All we have to do is show up and want it (and that "desire for a good thing" like everything else is entrusted to the parents -- you don't ask the baby if he wants to be fed or bathed or have the diapers changed). This was the Jewish practice to commit their children to the Lord as infants-- and basically every ancient religious group. You show me where scripture excludes children from receiving the grace of baptism! Paul notes in Col 2 that baptism replaced circumcision -- "In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead" Why wouldn't Paul make some mention that he wasn't talking about circumcision of infants and baptism of infants? Presumably because it didn't matter to him or the Jesus. You have to remember that Paul baptised his jailer: "At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household." There is NO exclusion of the children, Larry -- and furthermore we have NO texts of children of Christians later being baptised when they were a few years older. You in fact are obstructing the direct command of Jesus: "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’" (Luke 18:15–16)." Your legalism claiming that only adults can be baptised (where does it say that?) is completely against the Jewish practice of infant dedication to God (circumcision) and the very words of the Lord. The Catholic Church is following the practice of the ancient Church. Sorry, Larry, the Church has been doing it for 2000 years and we continue to do it. As for the other points, the Church does not "worship" Mary (not in the sense that God is "worshiped") but rather "venerated". We hold her in high esteem because she is the Mother of God and our mother. And the Rosary is only a prayer form. You can be a good Catholic and not pray the Rosary, but I kind of doubt that you as a protestant have ever done your part to fulfill the scripture "All generations shall call me blessed" or the words of Jesus on the Cross to "Behold your mother" in the person of the Blessed Virgin Mary, have you? . |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Dewey | May 23 2011, 01:59 PM Post #252 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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KB, you're exactly correct. The term "catholic" does in fact mean "universal," and it is used to refer to the entire, universal, Church. Yes, Roman Catholics and Protestants differ over what constitutes a true "church," even while the RCC makes a distinction that the people in what they refuse to accept are "churches" are still Christians. Obviously, I flatly reject the RCC position that the body that I am a member of is not a church. On the other hand, both Catholics and Protestants understand that the entire body of believers - that is, the "universal church" - is made up of Roman Catholics, and Orthodox, and Protestants, and a few other minor players as well. The term "Universal Church" - that is, the "catholic Church" - simply means the entirety of the body of Christian believers. When my congregation says the Apostles' Creed, we say that we believe in "the holy catholic Church," and we do so without batting an eyelash, because we understand the meaning of the term. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Mikhailoh | May 23 2011, 02:05 PM Post #253 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Jesus. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| George K | May 23 2011, 02:06 PM Post #254 |
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Finally
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H |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| Jesus Christ | May 23 2011, 02:08 PM Post #255 |
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Member
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Mik. |
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| George K | May 23 2011, 02:10 PM Post #256 |
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Finally
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This thread has been going on for almost three days, and now you show up? Slacker. Oh, and don't tell me that you were "busy" or some other such carp. Now we all know that you weren't. |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| ivorythumper | May 23 2011, 02:14 PM Post #257 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Of course there is evidence. What do you think "greetings from the Church in Babylon" means? And there is an unbroken tradition of the account of Peter's martyrdom in Rome. NO OTHER place has ever claimed that Peter died in their city. All the martyrdom places of all the apostles are well established in the memory and the early written accounts of the early Church -- yet Peter is in question??? On what basis? Because you don't want to accept that Peter was in Rome because then it raises the question of the legitimacy of the Pope as the successor to Peter? Furthermore, there is an early 3rd century account of a letter between a Christian, Gauis, who wrote to the non Christian Proclus who denied that the Catholic Church was established in Rome by the Apostles Peter and Paul. He noted: “I can point out the monuments of the victorious apostles. If you will go as far as the Vatican or the Ostian way [where San Paolo fuori le Mura is] you will find the monuments [i.e., trophies] of those who founded this church.” You can read this in Eusebius' History of the Church, book 2, chapter 25. read it for yourself. Sorry, Larry, the scholarship does not support your claims. If "One of my biggest problems with Catholicism is the belief in papal succession, based on Peter being the first "pope", when there is absolutely no evidence to support the claim that Peter was ever in Rome." -- then you should be ready to set aside that obstacle. ![]() |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | May 23 2011, 02:17 PM Post #258 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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+1. You were well educated.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Axtremus | May 23 2011, 02:22 PM Post #259 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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OK, then your usage of the word "heathen" (as a noun) has been wrong all along. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathen_(disambiguation), and http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heathen[2] That said, thanks for clarifying why you called yourself "heathen." |
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| Larry | May 23 2011, 02:28 PM Post #260 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Sorry, I must have missed the part of that verse where it says "Let the children come unto me so I can baptize them"... A person being baptized should be old enough to know why he's doing it. It has nothing to do with circumcision, in fact Paul said it was not necessary for gentiles to be circumsized - so the whole thing is just ritual practices. And no, infant baptism was not practiced by the early church. Maybe the early Catholic church, but those are two separate groups. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Larry | May 23 2011, 02:30 PM Post #261 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Catholic scholarship doesn't support my claims, but Catholic scholarship is rather lacking in subjectivity. There is no evidence that Peter was ever in Rome. Sorry. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | May 23 2011, 02:33 PM Post #262 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Klaus: My comment was that they were "Roman" Catholic since they were both in Rome and founded the Church there. Larry argues against that, though he has not a shred of evidence to prove that. The use of the the term Catholic comes in a bit later -- Ignatius of Antioch in his letter to the Smyrnaeans -written about 109 AD:
Here we see the whole hierarchical structure of the Church, the Eucharist as an act of the bishop or the priest entrusted to it, and the instance of the Catholic Church as the presence of Christ in the world (not the Orthodox Church -- which is a much later term -- perhaps KB can source the earliest use of that term). Protestants need to read Ignatius (and other ancient texts) to understand what the early Church believed and practiced as Christians -- as john Henry Newman said, ""To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant." |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Larry | May 23 2011, 02:36 PM Post #263 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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No, my usage of the word "heathen" has not been "wrong all along", I simply do not have my sphincter squeezing on my neck like you apparently do. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | May 23 2011, 02:39 PM Post #264 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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You base your bible on a codex of Jewish Rabbis that met in Jamnia in 100 AD -- after Jesus had sent the Holy Spirit to establish the Church on the apostles. These where Jews who did NOT accept Jesus, yet you base your view of the Bible on their judgment of what was their testament. That would be like you getting your views of what conservativism was about from Nancy Pelosi.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| KlavierBauer | May 23 2011, 02:40 PM Post #265 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Yeah - no. I'm done. |
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"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper "He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple | |
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| Larry | May 23 2011, 02:40 PM Post #266 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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The writings of Ignatius is not inspired scripture, and as such does not qualify as trumping what IS accepted as inspired scripture. In other words, I don't care what Ignatius said, it's not what scripture says, so it's just so much more Roman Catholic tradition having nothing to do with anything - unless one is a Catholic. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Larry | May 23 2011, 02:43 PM Post #267 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Man, are you ever grabbing at straws. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Axtremus | May 23 2011, 02:45 PM Post #268 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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That suggests that you define a heathen as some one who "like[ s] women, like[ s] to fight and will raise hell with the best of them, [doesn't] always practice what [he] know[ s] to be right." If that's what you've been meaning all along, you have been wrong for that is not the definition for the noun "heathen." If you have meant something else when using the noun heathen to describe yourself in the past, then you have been inconsistent. On this, you can be wrong and/or inconsistent (take your pick), but you cannot be right and consistent.[/s] |
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| Dewey | May 23 2011, 02:45 PM Post #269 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Smart man.
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Larry | May 23 2011, 02:57 PM Post #270 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Once there were two men riding in a hot air balloon who got lost. They decided to follow a river to see if that would help them sort out their location. After a while, they saw a man fishing off the bank of the river. It's rather quiet in a hot air balloon, so one of the men yelled down to the man fishing and asked "Do you know where we are?" The fisherman said "Yes - you're up there!" The man in the hot air balloon turned to the other man in the balloon with him and said "I hope that accountant has a good day fishing." The second man asks "What makes you think he's an accountant?" The first man says, "By the information he gave me. It was 100% accurate, and 100% useless." |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| John D'Oh | May 23 2011, 02:58 PM Post #271 |
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MAMIL
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Tell them the truth, and then leave, since they won't bloody listen anyway. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| ivorythumper | May 23 2011, 02:59 PM Post #272 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Larry, I am going to just go ahead and cut and paste for this, because it is so ridiculous that you deny the very words of Scripture. You might well disagree with the meaning, but it is beyond question that these are indeed supported by scripture. Pull out your bible and do the study. And I will just for now focus on baptism and Eucharist, since those are the two central sacraments. John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual. Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ. Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation. Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul. Acts 2:38 - Peter says to the multitude, "Repent and be baptized.." Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized” (“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”) This, contrary to what Protestants argue, actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse. Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants. Luke 1:59 - this proves that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults. Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults. Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word "household" comes from the Greek word "oikos" which is a household that includes infants and children. Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents' faith, not the children's faith. etc. Yes "Baptism" makes us Christians and gives us salvation. Why on earth would you criticize the Catholic Church for this? Jesus said "Do not hinder the children from coming to me". You seem to not want that to happen. You cannot honestly say that the Catholic view is not supported by the Bible.
John 6: 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. Then after that statement Jesus does not retract this understanding but affirms it all the more even to the disciples: 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever." 59 This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper'naum. 60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. 65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." 66 After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. 67 Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?" [/quote]According to this scriptural account seem to be one of those who went away, Larry -- because you do not accept the words of Jesus that he really does give us his body and blood as real food -- which he reiterated in the Last Supper. Again, you might not agree with the application, but it would be ignorant or dishonest to insist that the Catholic view is not supported by scripture. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Axtremus | May 23 2011, 02:59 PM Post #273 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Quitter!
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| Larry | May 23 2011, 03:02 PM Post #274 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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IT, I do not disagree that baptism is important. It's not what saves you, but it's important. What I was talking about when I said the Catholic view wasn't supported by scripture is infant baptism - and you have yet to show me any scripture to support that. As for communion, Jesus was speaking metaphorically. He did not intend for anyone to think they were being cannibals. Once again, you have failed to show me any scripture that support the notion of cannibalism. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| ivorythumper | May 23 2011, 03:04 PM Post #275 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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It's actually been used from within 70 years of Jesus' resurrection. (Ignatius of Antioch) |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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11:28 AM Jul 11