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and in other news; black box of air france found
Topic Started: May 1 2011, 08:32 PM (667 Views)
bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
while skimming cnn about the news from pakistan, i also saw that the AF black box was found on the bottom of the atlantic.

that crash has been an enigma for 2 years.

as copper can probably confirm, the bulk of air crashes occur either on takeoff or landing, its quite rare for a plane, especially a modern jetliner, to fall from the sky during cruising at altitude. coupled with the fact that it occured over water, finding the boxes would have been the crucial item of evidence and they were on the bottom of the drink somewhere.

finding them may shed light on this mysterious crash...

and of course will lead to one of those national geographic air crash investigation shows. which are pretty interesting.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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AndyD
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Amazing that the box has been found, presumably at depth on the Ocean floor after searching a huge area. As I remember there was no theory as to why the plane went down because there were no survivors and no wreckage.
Am also looking forward to the investigation show!
Every morning the soul is once again as good as new, and again one offers it to one's brothers & sisters in life.

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George K
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Finally
I just happened to watch the NOVA episode on this crash on Saturday, so the story is fresh in my mind. This'll be interesting.

THey claim that the pitot tubes got iced over, and the pilots didn't know their airspeed.
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jon-nyc
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Interesting indeed. Talk about a needle in a haystack.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Mikhailoh
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Wild. I wonder just how one goes about that, and determines exactly where to start actually looking on the ocean floor.
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1hp
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Fulla-Carp

Quote:
 
THey claim that the pitot tubes got iced over, and the pilots didn't know their airspeed.


A more "far out there" theory that I read was that ROHS is to blame. Story was that this model Airbus was the first to be built to ROHS (no lead, and other toxic chemicals). It's been shown that circuit boards assembled to ROHS can have a problem with tin migration which over time can cause shorts. It's believed that the US lost a satellite due to this problem. No way to really prove this unless they recover the actual black box that failed due to this.

Whisker phenomena

By the way, this can affect any modern device - iPhone, TV, computer,.....
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big al
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I think the French have spent a lot on this search. I'm glad they've been successful and hope they get useful information from the flight recorders to prevent future crashes.

Big Al
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-bachophile
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jon-nyc
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The jet stalled and went into freefall. Passengers had several minutes to contemplate their doom. Ouch.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-27/air-france-crash-probe-shows-jet-stalled-plunged-3-1-2-minutes-to-ocean.html

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Mikhailoh
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I'm not sure I understand how it stalled if the engines were running and responding to controls. It would seem they could get the airspeed up with full thrust.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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George K
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As I said earlier, the theory was that the pitot tubes got iced over, and the pilots had no indication of what their actual airspeed was. This particular Airbus (and most large airliners) are very sensitive as to speed and angle of attack. If you're not just "within the envelope" you'll stall out. Speed has to be maintained within 40 - 60 KIAS (iirc) and AOA has to be about 3 - 5 degrees (again, iirc). If you can't do that, the plane will stall and your SOL.

At least that was the theory. Plane hit turbulence, got into a storm. Pitot tubes ice over, auto pilot automatically disengages, and YOYO (you're on your own).
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Mikhailoh
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Arighty then, Mr. Lithiuanian Aeronautics Know-It-All.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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AndyD
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:lol:

The family were at Heathrow last Sunday and we parked on the top open air level of the car park to watch planes taking off (before seeing in-laws away).
It never fails to fascinate me the way those huge, heavy chunks of metal leave the ground.
Every morning the soul is once again as good as new, and again one offers it to one's brothers & sisters in life.

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George K
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Finally
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/space/crash-flight-447.html
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
actually im a bit concerned that the crash seems to be pilot error. ok there was the pitot problem, but they should have been able to get out of a stall....

i would feel better if it was just a fvck up with the engines.

dont ask me why....i can accept mechanical screw ups. i dont like the pilots fvcking up.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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jon-nyc
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Its a self-limiting problem.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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George K
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Watching the PBS documentary, if you lose airspeed indicator, it's SOP to pitch the aircraft up at 5 degrees, and apply 85% thrust to the engines, the aircraft will settle in to within 5 knots of what would be the safe speed, and the aircraft won't stall. They show this done in a simulator.

However, if they were entering a storm (which they were), SOP would be to lower power to reduce stress on the aircraft in turbulence. In Airbus aircraft the actual throttles don't move with lowered power, and unless you look at the actual gauges, rather than the thrust levers, you won't see it.

They speculate that the crew was overloaded with fault warning (autopilot off, thrust reduction, pitot tube failures - times three) - all within 2 minutes - and didn't see the warnings.

In previous cases of pitot tube failure with Airbus aircraft, the crews didn't catch the speed decrease for up to 60 seconds, and this can lead to a stall.

So, why didn't the pilots recover from the stall? They theorize that when the aircraft stalled, it then almost immediately rolled to one side, and most pilots are not trained to deal with that kind of attitude in the aircraft. I would guess that the FDR would show if the aircraft was in that attitude.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Copper
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Shortstop
bachophile
May 27 2011, 10:06 AM


dont ask me why....i can accept mechanical screw ups. i dont like the pilots fvcking up.

Virtually all aviation accidents are the pilot's fault.

Even if the airplane just breaks in half, the pilot should have known, that's the job.

You can look throught the NTSB files here: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/month.aspx
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Copper
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George K
May 27 2011, 10:36 AM

So, why didn't the pilots recover from the stall? They theorize that when the aircraft stalled, it then almost immediately rolled to one side, and most pilots are not trained to deal with that kind of attitude in the aircraft. I would guess that the FDR would show if the aircraft was in that attitude.

When one wing "stalls" more than the other (and rolls to one side) that develops into a "spin". Spin awareness is an important topic for student pilots. But you do not actually have to "spin" an airplane to get a commercial license. You are required to practice "spins" and demonstrate competency in dealing with a spin to become a flight instructor.

Part of the reason of course is because it can be dangerous. Some people think it's fun, but most wouldn't practice it.

I haven't watched the video yet, but I would expect that at least spin awareness is part of the recurring training. But maybe not because these planes just aren't expected to spin.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Copper
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Shortstop

I watched the video - interesting show.

The automated systems have taken all control - until the going gets rough and then they just bail out and dump it back on a pilot who has been lulled into complacency. Wow, scary story.

Why does this make me think about the US congress?
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
I hope to never have to fly commercially ever again.
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Copper
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Some reports on the black box data.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/air-france-flight-447-timeline-tragedy/story?id=13702900

Quote:
 
"This airplane was flyable," he added. "There was no reason for this airplane to crash other than pilot confusion."


http://www.npr.org/2011/05/27/136712003/report-air-france-pilot-resting-as-plane-plunged?ps=cprs

Quote:
 
"It would seem to me, reading between the lines, that the cockpit crew weren't confident of the information that was being presented to them on the data displays. Maybe — and it's only a maybe — they took some action that led to the stall warning, and the plane stalling and then being unable to correct it."
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
May 27 2011, 12:48 PM
I hope to never have to fly commercially ever again.
im on a plane every couple of months.

thats what u get when the only border one can leave the country safely is over the sea.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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jon-nyc
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I'm down to once every couple of months. Beats the hell out of every 3-4 weeks like I was doing at my last job.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Mikhailoh
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bachophile
May 27 2011, 07:38 PM
Mark
May 27 2011, 12:48 PM
I hope to never have to fly commercially ever again.
im on a plane every couple of months.

thats what u get when the only border one can leave the country safely is over the sea.
Food for thought, and not a parameter we are accustomed to.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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jon-nyc
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More food for thought, the Palestinians don't even have the air option. (at least not as a general right)
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