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Broads.; IQ vs Pelvis Size
Topic Started: Apr 19 2011, 07:31 AM (610 Views)
JBryan
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I am the grey one
Loosely defined.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
You said loosely... :D
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
You said "said."
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
Quote:
 

Lots of things fall on their face evolutionarily, as they serve no purpose until their complexity is complete, many many generations into their evolution


E.g.?
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
I'm looking forward to KB trying to defend that old creationist standby.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
I don't imagine we'd agree much on that - but I'm happy to be the reason you've come out of retirement! :)
There are things in our makeup, and in nature's makeup, that you and I would both believe are there due to evolutionary process, but which on their own are counter-intuitive, as they were a hinderance for a long time before they were a help.
The human eye is a good example of this, as it's one that evolutionary science has researched greatly, ever since Darwin himself thought it virtually impossible for the eye to naturally evolve.
He eventually realized that if each gradation was useful to its predecessor it was feasible to occur, and modern science backs this up - but scientists still study the eye heavily to better understand how, genetically, it occurred within the evolutionary model.
Darwin
from the Origin of Species
if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real.

While we can observe rapid evolutionary acceleration during the Cambrian Explosion (specifically in the birth, and evolution of the eye), we still don't understand exactly how this particular advancement came to be in its entirety.
I'm not moving toward ID, or creationism here - so be ye not afraid - I'm simply stating that a number of complex mechanisms (wings are another example) evolved against astounding odds, as they may not have offered much advantage or "fitness" for survival prior to their latter stages.

I guess T-Rex's arms may be another example. :)
Though recent research shows he may've been more of a scavenger, and not the fierce hunter we think him to be, which may explain why he was so weak as a predator in the context of his extremities.

*edit*
I can see you and Jon's saliva dripping out of your Rancor jaws (Rancor as in Star Wars), thinking I'm positing some anti-evolution pseudo-science. If you think that's where I'm headed, then you've either not had this discussion with me previously, or have never asked me what I believe, as I don't argue against evolution, but for it. My statement wasn't a backhanded dig at evolutionary theory, but an honest observation that science is still trying to understand the mechanism behind some of these processes - I didn't mean anything else by it - so if you're hoping to see a science-smack down of sorts, I'd try to get your money back.
Edited by KlavierBauer, Apr 19 2011, 04:14 PM.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Moonbat
Apr 19 2011, 03:30 PM
Quote:
 

Lots of things fall on their face evolutionarily, as they serve no purpose until their complexity is complete, many many generations into their evolution


E.g.?
Atheism. :D
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
I see no reason to believe that eyes or wings had to traverse intermediate evolutionary stages where they were disadvantageous. As far as T-Rex arms go, seems likely that the arms were advantageous for some ancestor and were made obsolete by other body parts (jaws/teeth presumably). Obsolete body parts will probably tend toward vanishing evolutionarily due to useless body mass being dis-advantageous. Same reason humans still have tail bones but no tails.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Horace: I don't disagree.
The T-Rex comment was obviously (should be obvious anyway - given the smiley face) said jokingly.
And what I was trying to communicate i.e. eyes and wings (but specifically eyes) wasn't in opposition to what you're saying. I'm not putting forth the idea that eyes were disadvantageous - in fact, as Darwin states, the opposite has to be true for them to exist. My point originally was that at first glance, most complexities like this fall on their face - they aren't obviously advantageous - and science is still studying how the eye evolved to figure just this out. It happened - we know that - we'd like to understand now how it was advantageous in its earlier stages, as it seems to have evolved very quickly.

What's amazing, is that the complex eye formed (as far as we can tell) post radiation of the species. So, while simpler eye components evolved once (before radiation), the complex "camera eye" (favorite Rush song btw) evolved after this - and did so independently many times. That's kind of what's fascinating about it - it evolved many times independently, even though on the surface it seems to be an impossible level of complexity to have simply evolved.
A great example of this are the nearly identical structures of eyes within vertebrates and octopuses. They don't share commonality in this regard, and developed the same structure independently.
It's amazing.
Edited by KlavierBauer, Apr 19 2011, 04:37 PM.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
I think we're all in agreement that some pretty amazing things happened in evolution. But I'm still not seeing your basis for the comment about "lots of things falling on their face evolutionarily". The examples you've given haven't supported it and the quote from Darwin argues against it?

By the way, that Darwin quote is an example of some horrible writing!
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
As I said in my last post - I'm speaking more to how these things appear at first glance.
Darwin's comment on the eye originally for example, was:
Quote:
 
"absurd in the highest possible degree"


I was never positing that these things aren't possible within the evolutionary model - just that they appear to be very difficult to achieve. Perhaps my original comment should've been better worded to include what I thought was implied - that these things appear differently than they are (I wasn't guessing that the comment, given in a very different context, would elicit such attention from our resident scientists).
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
Quote:
 

The human eye is a good example of this


Why do you think that the evolution of the mammalian eye went through a hindrance phase? Evolution doesn't go through hindrance phases, if genes are a disadvantage they will be selected against and the frequency of the population possessing those genes will shrink.

Quote:
 

I'm simply stating that a number of complex mechanisms (wings are another example) evolved against astounding odds, as they may not have offered much advantage or "fitness" for survival prior to their latter stages.


There is a difference between not much advantage and a hindrance. Having a flap of skin that slightly reduces your speed as you fall might only be a small reproductive advantage but over large numbers of generations the frequency of alleles that code for that flap of skin (and indeed make it larger) will increase as on average organisms with those particular alleles will be slightly more likely to pass on their genes than those who lack them.

When you say wings evolved against astounding odds. Why do you think that? Wings and eyes seem to me very very likely to have appeared. If we could go back in time and reset life and watch it all evolve again then assuming multicellular organisms evolved at all i'd bet a lot on eyes and wings evolving again. Nothing about them looks particularly irreducible they are very common and may well have evolved multiple times. (not sure I'd bet on Bombardier beetles appearing again though)

Recall that whether we can sit back and imagine how some particular trait evolved tells us very little about the likelyhood of that particular trait evolving.

Edit: Horace beat me to it
Edited by Moonbat, Apr 19 2011, 04:55 PM.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Oh yes.

This smelled of a Moonbat thread. ^_^

:wave:
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
:wave:
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Moonbat: fair enough - replace hindrance with "not much advantage."

I'm not arguing irreducible complexity as I said in my first post - in fact, I'm not arguing - so no need to head in this direction:
Quote:
 
Nothing about them looks particularly irreducible they are very common and may well have evolved multiple times. (not sure I'd bet on Bombardier beetles appearing again though)


Of course we'd all watch life evolve and see eyes and wings evolving again - they make great sense now.
They may not have always made that same sense, as they would've at some point been flightless, and sightless, and perhaps not the most efficient form of whatever benefit they provided - that's all I'm saying.
This statement I read somewhere seems to apply:
Quote:
 
Recall that whether we can sit back and imagine how some particular trait evolved tells us very little about the likelyhood of that particular trait evolving.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Moonbat
Apr 19 2011, 04:51 PM
Wings and eyes seem to me very very likely to have appeared. If we could go back in time and reset life and watch it all evolve again then assuming multicellular organisms evolved at all i'd bet a lot on eyes and wings evolving again.
In fact, if KB is correct about eyes having evolved independently in multiple species, I'd say we have some pretty compelling evidence that they are very likely to evolve.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Eyes should be a fairly obvious evolutionary adaptation to the available stimuili. Wings are similarly obvious as and adaptation to avoid predation and finally to facilitate same.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
jodi
Apr 19 2011, 07:49 AM
:lol2: No kidding. And no pictures. I need pictures. :lol2:
Check out your old camcorder tapes...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
Horace:
I am - trust me!
In Taylor's Origin and Evolutionary Radiation of the Mollusca I believe he cites 50-100 independent "tracks" of evolution for the complex, "camera" eye, versus one for the simpler ocular components.

In fact - here's a great pbs video on the gradations necessary to achieve this marvel, and an explanation why the human eye isn't even the best "design" out there:
Evolution of the Eye
Edited by KlavierBauer, Apr 19 2011, 05:36 PM.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Ok, as I understand the thread, some of you are concerned that, should you ever actually get a woman to sleep with you, her birth canal may not be able to stretch far enough to allow the large brain your egghead children will have to pass through it.

The solution is simple - if you need to have her birth canal stretched, just call me........
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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KlavierBauer
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HOLY CARP!!!
I don't think anyone's worried about that. Nature already built into the skulls of babies the ability to reshape their heads accordingly.

I mean really - we've already been over the proper solution. Alien.
"I realize you want him to touch you all over and give you babies, but his handling of the PR side really did screw the pooch." - Ivory Thumper
"He said sleepily: "Don't worry mom, my dick is like hot logs in the morning." - Apple

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